Offside under 10m law when kick goes backwards

[The umpire]

Can you be so?
On Friday AR penalised Glasgow for this when the fly-half attemted to kick ahead but succeeded only in slicing it off the side off his boot and sending about 5m nearer his own goal line.

11.4 OFFSIDE UNDER THE 10-METRE LAW
(a) When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player is considered to be taking part in the game if the player is in front of an imaginary line across the field which is 10 metres from the opponent waiting to play the ball, or from where the ball lands or may land. The offside player must immediately move behind the imaginary 10-metre line or the kicker if this is closer than 10 metres. While moving away, the player must not obstruct an opponent."

but
(e) The 10-metre Law is not altered by the fact that the ball has hit a goal post or a crossbar. What matters is where the ball lands. An offside player must not be in front of the imaginary 10-metre line across the field.

So, was AR right on not?

 

[beckett50]

Not sure why you're suggesting he wasn't? You've referenced the Law and that answers your question; well it does to me.

Perhaps you can clarify?

 

[crossref]

if you are behind the kicker when he kicks, then you can't possibly be offside.

 

[didds]

I'm, like, so TOTALLY with crossref on this! I can't envisage how anyone could be offside - whether under the 10m law or not - if the kick goes behind the kicker?

didds

 

[Davet]

If you are behind the kicker when the kicking made then you are onside. Indeed it is you who can then run and play teammates onside.

If you are behind the kicker I can't see what difference it makes if the kick goes forward or backwards.

 

[Dixie]

Absolutely. The key word that has NOT been bolded in the law is Offside. A player behind the kicker at the time of the kick is not offside, so the law does not apply to him. But a player who was in front of the kick and runs backwards to help out in defence is indeed offside under the 10m law until he gets behind the notional line across the pitch.

 

[FlipFlop]

But a player INFRONT of the kicker can be offside under the 10m rule, even if the kick goes backwards.

Behind the kicker - can't be offside.

 

[Davet]

But a player who was in front of the kick and runs backwards to help out in defence is indeed offside under the 10m law until he gets behind the notional line across the pitch.

Or gets behind the kicker, surely? I suppose, strictly, 11.4.b talks about being put onside when an already onside player runs in front of the player... but ... surely; if the player gets behind the kicker / other onside player before he has retired the 10m behind where the ball landed then he must be onside. Or we really are playing games of pedantry.

 

[Casey Bee]

But The Umpire has highlighted the Law as saying kicked ahead. It's unusual, but in this circumstance, the kick was not ahead. I think T U is asking if this law should be applied at all in the situation?

 

[The Fat]

But The Umpire has highlighted the Law as saying kicked ahead. It's unusual, but in this circumstance, the kick was not ahead. I think T U is asking if this law should be applied at all in the situation?

What if the #9 DID kick ahead (high box kick) but the ball only travelled a metre forward and was then blown back 5 - 10 metres?

 

[Davet]

I think my point was that the "kicked ahead" bit simply describes the expected, normal, activity; and to say that since the kick was backwards and therefore if you have run back behind the kicker that doesn't put you onside, would be wholly perverse understanding of the principles of the game.

 

[crossref]

What if the #9 DID kick ahead (high box kick) but the ball only travelled a metre forward and was then blown back 5 - 10 metres?

- there is no opponent waiting to play the ball where it lands (or if there is it strikes me he is lazy-runner from the preceding ruck/maul and offside himself)

- so personally I would not penalise the kicker's forwards for running back to help with defence. If a tackle/maul/ruck forms they are going to have to come round the right side to join in, otherwise I just see it as open play.

the alternative is that they have to get 10m behind the ball before coming forward again? I can't see that.

 

[The Fat]

- there is no opponent waiting to play the ball where it lands (or if there is it strikes me he is lazy-runner from the preceding ruck/maul and offside himself)
.

Good point

 

[Casey Bee]

What if the #9 DID kick ahead (high box kick) but the ball only travelled a metre forward and was then blown back 5 - 10 metres?

Not sure? Does that then set the 10m 'line' say 10m behind the kicker thus potentially rendering all players offside?

 

[Taff]

Not sure? Does that then set the 10m 'line' say 10m behind the kicker thus potentially rendering all players offside?

But as long as they were level with or behind the kicker, its irrelevent surely - because they're not offside.

The 10m Law only applies to offside players. If a player is onside - he can forget about the 10m Law.

 

[Casey Bee]

But as long as they were level with or behind the kicker, its irrelevent surely - because they're not offside.

The 10m Law only applies to offside players. If a player is onside - he can forget about the 10m Law.

Good point

 

[crossref]

Not sure? Does that then set the 10m 'line' say 10m behind the kicker thus potentially rendering all players offside?

I think the team mates behind the kicker when he kicked can't possibly be offside under any circs.
Consider: it's very common for a centre to put through a grubber kick that travels 5-10m for the winger to collect. As long as the winger is behind the kicker at the moment of the kick he's onside and he's not caught by any 10m rule.

it's the status of forwards in front of the kicker that is interesting
- they are offside at the moment of the kick, certainly
but when it is blown back
1) does the 10m rule apply and
2) if it does apply, or if it doesn't apply, how do they get onside?

 

[ChrisR]

The words "kicked ahead", as highlighted by The Umpire in the OP, are critical. Kicking the ball toward your own goal does NOT put team mates offside no matter where they are.

 

[Davet]

Kicking the ball toward your own goal does NOT put team mates offside no matter where they are.

Not strictly true.

Players ahead of the kicker are, by definition, offside.

But once they are placed behind the kicker they become onside.

It doesn't matter which direction the ball is kicked in - however if it goes backwards they are very unlikely to be penalisable, since they will not be moving "forwards twards the ball", or be interfering with play while still offside (unless they remain the foremost players in their team)

 

[Dixie]

I have been convinced by Davet's argument, and have changed my view. I agree with him that:

a) a player ahead of a team-mate who has kicked is by definition offside
b) the requirement for the kick to be one in the direction of "ahead" is merely the expectation of the bleeding obvious, and not a requirement.
c) the 10m law does indeed apply
d) by running behind the kicker (or, I think we must presume, the place where the kick was made, even if the kicker is no longer there), the offside player has satisfied his obligations under the 10m law.

[LAWS]a) When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player is considered to be taking part in the game if the player is in front of an imaginary line across the field which is 10 metres from the opponent waiting to play the ball, or from where the ball lands or may land. The offside player must immediately move behind the imaginary 10-metre line or the kicker if this is closer than 10 metres. While moving away, the player must not obstruct an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]