Offside under 10m Law
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Dickie E
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Yes...although the "tidying up" of the wording in the new law book has muddied the waters by not making it clear.
According to the 2018 law book an "offside under 10m player" cannot be put onside at all, which is clearly ridiculous.
2017
[LAWS]11.4 OFFSIDE UNDER THE 10-METRE LAW
(a) When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player is considered to
be taking part in the game if the player is in front of an imaginary line across the field which
is 10 metres from the opponent waiting to play the ball, or from where the ball lands or may
land. The offside player must immediately move behind the imaginary 10-metre line or the
kicker if this is closer than 10 metres. While moving away, the player must not obstruct an
opponent or interfere with play.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) While moving away, the offside player cannot be put onside by any action of the opposing
team. However, before the player has moved the full 10 metres, the player can be put
onside by any onside team-mate who runs in front of the player.[/LAWS]
2018
[LAWS]LAW 10
6. Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when:
a. That player:
i. Moves behind a team-mate who last played the ball; or
ii. Moves behind a team-mate who is onside.
b. An onside team-mate of that player moves past the offside player and is within or
has re-entered the playing area.
c. An opponent of that player:
i. Carries the ball five metres; or
ii. Passes the ball; or
iii. Kicks the ball; or
iv. Intentionally touches the ball without gaining possession of it.
7. A player offside under Law 10.4c cannot be put onside by any action of an opponent,
apart from a charge down.[/LAWS]
According to the 2018 law book an "offside under 10m player" cannot be put onside at all, which is clearly ridiculous.
2017
[LAWS]11.4 OFFSIDE UNDER THE 10-METRE LAW
(a) When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player is considered to
be taking part in the game if the player is in front of an imaginary line across the field which
is 10 metres from the opponent waiting to play the ball, or from where the ball lands or may
land. The offside player must immediately move behind the imaginary 10-metre line or the
kicker if this is closer than 10 metres. While moving away, the player must not obstruct an
opponent or interfere with play.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) While moving away, the offside player cannot be put onside by any action of the opposing
team. However, before the player has moved the full 10 metres, the player can be put
onside by any onside team-mate who runs in front of the player.[/LAWS]
2018
[LAWS]LAW 10
6. Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when:
a. That player:
i. Moves behind a team-mate who last played the ball; or
ii. Moves behind a team-mate who is onside.
b. An onside team-mate of that player moves past the offside player and is within or
has re-entered the playing area.
c. An opponent of that player:
i. Carries the ball five metres; or
ii. Passes the ball; or
iii. Kicks the ball; or
iv. Intentionally touches the ball without gaining possession of it.
7. A player offside under Law 10.4c cannot be put onside by any action of an opponent,
apart from a charge down.[/LAWS]
I was certain the answer was yes, but I looked at the law-book and I think the way it is written the answer is probably no.
The only sensible way that I can see of reading the new law 10.4(c) is that the player must retire behind the 10m line, otherwise he remains offside (except in the one case of a charge down):
[LAWS]10.4An offside player may be penalised, if that player:
(a) Interferes with play; or
(b) Moves forwards towards the ball; or
(c) Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately to an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands, even if it hits a goal post or crossbar first. If this involves more than one player, then the player closest to where the ball lands or is caught is the one penalised. This is known as the 10-metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not when the kick is charged down.
Sanction: The non-offending team can choose either:
Penalty at the place of infringement; or
Scrum where the offending team last played the ball.
[/LAWS]
This is because of law 10.6 and 10.7:
[LAWS]10.6 Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when:
(a) That player:
(i) Moves behind a team-mate who last played the ball; or
(ii) Moves behind a team-mate who is onside.
(b) An onside team-mate of that player moves past the offside player and is within or has re-entered the playing area.
(c) An opponent of that player:
(i) Carries the ball five metres; or
(ii) Passes the ball; or
(iii) Kicks the ball; or
(iv) Intentionally touches the ball without gaining possession of it.
10.7 A player offside under Law 10.4c cannot be put onside by any action of an opponent, apart from a charge down.
[/LAWS]
As strange as it seems, I think it has to be read that a player who is offside under the 10m law simpy has to retire the 10m before becoming onside again. I don't know how I feel about this.
The only sensible way that I can see of reading the new law 10.4(c) is that the player must retire behind the 10m line, otherwise he remains offside (except in the one case of a charge down):
[LAWS]10.4An offside player may be penalised, if that player:
(a) Interferes with play; or
(b) Moves forwards towards the ball; or
(c) Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately to an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands, even if it hits a goal post or crossbar first. If this involves more than one player, then the player closest to where the ball lands or is caught is the one penalised. This is known as the 10-metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not when the kick is charged down.
Sanction: The non-offending team can choose either:
Penalty at the place of infringement; or
Scrum where the offending team last played the ball.
[/LAWS]
This is because of law 10.6 and 10.7:
[LAWS]10.6 Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when:
(a) That player:
(i) Moves behind a team-mate who last played the ball; or
(ii) Moves behind a team-mate who is onside.
(b) An onside team-mate of that player moves past the offside player and is within or has re-entered the playing area.
(c) An opponent of that player:
(i) Carries the ball five metres; or
(ii) Passes the ball; or
(iii) Kicks the ball; or
(iv) Intentionally touches the ball without gaining possession of it.
10.7 A player offside under Law 10.4c cannot be put onside by any action of an opponent, apart from a charge down.
[/LAWS]
As strange as it seems, I think it has to be read that a player who is offside under the 10m law simpy has to retire the 10m before becoming onside again. I don't know how I feel about this.
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If you read each book in isolation that would be the only conclusion you could come to.
However as we (experienced ref's) know there have been no law changes to the offside law, so the answer is still Yes, but this would not be immediately obvious to a new referee reading the 2018 law book in isolation. Any Society (including the RFU) presented with this question would say Yes and that is how we will all referee it, but I agree with you that its a pigs ear!
Which prevails?. Is it:
(a) the edict that the laws have not changed;
(b) the wording of the most recent lawbook.
I would have thought that (b) has to prevail over (a), even if I don't like the result.
As we start a new season, then obviously (b) the Law Book must prevail...
A few weeks ago we had a new edition of the 2018 Law Book , so Phil is now refereeing not to the previous version,, but to the version before last.
When the 2019 Law Book comes out, Phil, if it says the same as 2018/2 , will you still cling to 2017?
A few weeks ago we had a new edition of the 2018 Law Book , so Phil is now refereeing not to the previous version,, but to the version before last.
When the 2019 Law Book comes out, Phil, if it says the same as 2018/2 , will you still cling to 2017?
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I will cling to what WR say and what the RFU say and what my Society say...currently they all say no law changes from last year, even if the law books wording has changed. I am sure a new statement will follow in 2019. I just do what I am told and don't try to second guess.
I believe your Society also said no law changes? So the answer to the original question for you is still Yes.
NB: Now you can come back and say "I don't know what that means anymore" (saved you the time of typing it).
You regard all changes as accidental.
I think some are, some were deliberate.
This particular change must be an accident - and would be very hard to ref to, so I think the pragmatic answer is indeed Yes
I really hope they issue a revised edition before the start of the season, sorting out which changes were deliberate and which were accidental
Bit of a problem for new refs who don't have the old book!
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I know, I said the same in post 8.
And for old refs who don't have the old book !
Rich_NL
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Ahh, gotcha. So if they were going for concise, they could have said
10.6.a) the player...
b) a team-mate...
c) other than under 10.4.c, when an opponent...
There are several ways they could have approached it. To me it bears the signs of a group edit bodge job.
I don't think they intended to change the Law on this
ChrisR
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[LAWS]10.7 A player offside under Law 10.4c cannot be put onside by any action of an opponent, apart from a charge down.[/LAWS]
This is strange wording as it's not the opponent who is charging down but a teammate.
This is strange wording as it's not the opponent who is charging down but a teammate.