Penalising coaches!!!!

[didds]

I therefore called both skippers to the centre spot. I informed the black skipper that his team had an extra player on the pitch whilst the match was in play.

Well, there's the rub really isn't it?

There was no 16th player. There was A.N. Other that had no right to be there, but he wasn't a player. He wasn't, I suspect greatly, on the team sheet as a player for sure.

So you've made something up because you felt it wasn't right - again. You seem to have a history of this.

The laws I will agree do not cover this scenario adequately. At best society regs etc provide some reporting system, and you can stop the game until the home club get matters under control, but making up non-laws or bending the laws where they do not fit is little better IMO than what the bloke that ran across did.

As I asked above - what would you have done if it wasn't somebody known to be a coach? Just a random spectator? Maybe without identifying colours as to which side they supported? And if colours were worn, how would you know it wasn't some double bluff going on? ie red v blue, blue supporter puts reds' colours on and runs across pitch to dupe the ref into winning blue a PK?

Forget it was a coach, treat them as a random person, and apply the laws as written and meant. Everything else is NOT your problem to resolve.

And stop making stuff up.



didds

 

[Na Madrai]

.......... Yesterday, I refereed black's under seventeens in a cup semi-final.

Black were completely dominant and the fifty point differential was reached shortly after half-time. White coaches decided to play on - at least for a little while.

Towards the end of the match, some players drew my attention to a black's coach who was standing near to the fifteen metre line on the opposite side of the pitch from where play was, waving his arms and screaming. I immediately stopped play and approached him. He continued shouting and waving his arms so I stopped perhaps five yards from him. He was shouting about one of his players having received a serious knock to his head.

When he had finished his tirade, which inluded much foul language, he let me know in no uncertain terms what he thought of my refereeing ability. I decided to dismiss him from the playing enclosure for abuse and to use a RC so that players and spectators alike know what is happening - the primary purpose of using a card in relation to a coach in my opinion.

However, even as I reached into my pocket, he grabbed my arm and then pushed me in the chest. He then pushed past me using his shoulder to knock me back. By his time, another black's coach had appeared to usher him off the pitch and, after I had spoken to him, the second coach, from the playing enclosure.

Although there had been a number of hard collisions during the match, for the first time that I can recall, no player was forced to receive treatment during the match and, apart from technical infringements, there were only two penalties during the match - white for charging recklessly into a ruck for which he was yellow carded, and black for an attempted trip.

No player appeared to be injured, both skippers stated that their team mates were fine and so we played on. After the match, I was informed that the coach was reacting to a comment from a spectator that the coach's son had been seen holding his head!

I have put a report in and received a reply that a coach from black's under fifteen team had also been dismissed yesterday - three coaches at different age group levels, from the same club, in eight days!

All three teams are through to finals!!!!

Be very interesting to see what happens next.


NM

 

[Na Madrai]

Sorry, Didds, but there is a burden on every referee to try to ensure that the game is played in the right spirit - not jut now but for the future. I will not allow the game to sink to the level that soccer has done despite the best attempts of coaches to do otherwise.

This was a clear case of sportsmanship and I thought up what I thought was the correct response. Had I the time to think about it, what I would now do in the future should this occur again is abandon the match and then let the officials sort it out. At the time, I came up with what I thought to be a logical conclusion - agreed by two current referees and disagreed by two no longer active referees.

Had it been a spectator - but it was not, this person was present at the coaches prematch briefing?

NM

 

[crossref]

Considering the number of unusual tales we have been told over the years, I do wonder if NM is pulling our legs... and has been for quite a while.

 

[didds]

Sorry, Didds, but there is a burden on every referee to try to ensure that the game is played in the right spirit - not jut now but for the future. I will not allow the game to sink to the level that soccer has done despite the best attempts of coaches to do otherwise.

I don't disagree. But you seem to have a history of making laws ujp, and bending laws to fit your perceived vision of what the game "is".

The game has clearly defined procedures, discussed here ad nauseum, of dealing with extraneous persons. That is what stops rugby from degenerating in to football. Waving red cards around in a frankly totally meaningless fashion doesn't help at all. What it does do is make you look like someone who actually doesn't understand the laws properly. And that is where loss of respect for you starts. ifr you are going to make laws up to suit you and your vision of the game, why shouldn't anybody else?

Stop making stuff up. Blow the laws, use the regs and your society's procedures. It really cannot be that difficult.

didds

 

[Na Madrai]

No red card was waved about in this instance!

We had a child, probably playing in the most imposing surroundings of his life, probably in front of the largest crowd of his life and probably taking the most important kick of his life and his concentration is deliberately destroyed by an adult official from the opposition camp - an adult who had been expressely warned against entering the playing enclosure. Of course, the kicker could have been an international schoolboy having a bad day and thus used to such pressure but from what I saw in general play, I doubt it.

My preceived vision of the game is based on the fact that the laws states something along the lines of rugby football should be played both to the letter and the spirit of the Laws and that coaches should respect the decisions of the referee.* This adult took a deliberate decision to try to assist his side against the spirit of rugby football and against the express instructions of the referee. You believe that it is up to the tournament's organisers to decide whether there should be a punishment but this will be long after the event and I doubt if any of the crowd would ever hear of the organiser's decision. They would go away and no doubt some of them would think this behaviour acceptable because 'we saw it at that match'.

By making my decision, wrongly or rightly, I have emphasised to all - especially the important people, the kids playing in the match - that such behaviour will not be tolerated in rugby football. It is not much, but it is an attempt to keep the mutual respect between all participants in rugby which is the guiding principle behind the Laws.

Thinking about it now, as I said, the probable correct response should have been to abandon the match and let the organisers sort it out but at the time I did what I thought best for the game of rugby football.

As to pulling legs, Crossref, all my stories are actually true - I sometimes think that I should get a tee shirt like that soccer player a couple of years back asking why does it always happen to me?



NM

*Sorry, I am not computer literate enough to sort out the exact wording; I am always amazed at how easily most contributors to this site are able to post direct quotations from the Laws.

 

[crossref]

As to pulling legs, Crossref, all my stories are actually true - I sometimes think that I should get a tee shirt like that soccer player a couple of years back asking why does it always happen to me?
.

Oh well, at least no one called the police this time !

 

[davidgh]

NM, I applaud you for trying to uphold the spirit and manners of the game.

I think using a Red Card in that way to indicate to the crowd and the players that the coach has been expelled is an excellent idea. Some counties have a real issue with Coach and Parental behaviour and it needs seriously overt behaviour of this sort to ensure that all present get the message - loud and clear - unacceptable.

The situation is really covered in the LOTG so I think you are right to make it up.

Restarting with a Penalty is an interesting idea, but I suspect a bridge too far. Had the Captains been warned about their coaches behaviour?

 

[crossref]

NM, I applaud you for trying to uphold the spirit and manners of the game.

I think using a Red Card in that way to indicate to the crowd and the players that the coach has been expelled is an excellent idea. Some counties have a real issue with Coach and Parental behaviour and it needs seriously overt behaviour of this sort to ensure that all present get the message - loud and clear - unacceptable.

but he didn't issue a red card ! - The intruder, who may / may not have been a coach, had disappeared.

The coach had disappeared into the crowd behind the posts and I could deal with him afterwards. I decided that this act of gross unsporting behaviour needed to be seen to be seriously punished by both players and spectators. Although this was the last minute of the match, my action would have to be the same as if it were the first minute and must therefore have a discouraging effect.

I therefore called both skippers to the centre spot. I informed the black skipper that his team had an extra player on the pitch whilst the match was in play. In accordance with the laws, play restarted with a PK to blue on the centre spot.

Restarting with a Penalty is an interesting idea, but I suspect a bridge too far.

but that is the action that NM actually did.

 

[didds]

but he didn't issue a red card !

err... ??

NM: "I decided to dismiss him from the playing enclosure for abuse and to use a RC so that players and spectators alike know what is happening"

My point is/was simply that there is nothing in the laws and regs generally that this is in anyway a meaningful action. All it does is flag you as aref that ignores/is ignorant of those laws/regs.

didds

 

[didds]

>> Restarting with a Penalty is an interesting idea, but I suspect a bridge too far.
but that is the action that NM actually did.

There is no law that permits a ref to PK a team for the actions of its supporters including coaches.

Maybe there should be - but there isn't.

didds

 

[crossref]

NM has described two incidents - in neither story does he tell us he issued a RC

In the first one NM tells is the intruder disappeared

The coach had disappeared into the crowd behind the posts and I could deal with him afterwards

In the second one NM tells us he decided to issue a RC, but before he could get the card out of his pocket he was assaulted, and then a second coach arrived and ushered the miscreant away.

However, even as I reached into my pocket, he grabbed my arm and then pushed me in the chest. He then pushed past me using his shoulder to knock me back. By his time, another black's coach had appeared to usher him off the pitch and, after I had spoken to him, the second coach, from the playing enclosure

 

[didds]

OK - semantics. IF the coach HADN'T shoved him etc etc etc he WOULD have produced a RC. The RC WOULD have appeared. Contrary to any law or regulation available in RFU land. And most of the rest of the world. The action is in reality meaningless - it has no basis in the laws etc.

As it was he DID PK the team for its coach's action.

"There is no law that permits a ref to PK a team for the actions of its supporters including coaches."

Don't make stuff up. If I cannot be any more clearer, then "If you make stuff up, you will look a twat".



Clear now?

didds

 

[crossref]

the two incidents are really very different.

1 - the first incident described was an intruder on the pitch, who may have been a coach, who disappeared.

2 - the second incident described was very severe case of referee abuse and actual assault! - with coach ordered off the playing enclosure (or would have been if not escorted off by colleagues)

For (2) you shouldn't use a card , as cards are for players - but on the other hand, I don't have a strong aversion to showing a RC if it helps to get the message across to the coach and spectators. A RC means you are ordering the player off the field. That's exactly what you are doing to the coach.

 

[Shelflife]

While I agree with NM ethos, awarding a pen was just wrong in law and only opens up another can of worms. The coach was a dick and it should be reported, but thats hard to do as the rest of the coaches covered for him. Its up to the committes to come down hard on things like this.

Id have no problem with showing a red card in the second instance, sure theres no basis in law for it but it shows clearly to all at the game that such behaviour isnt tolerated and that it hasnt gone unpunished/unnoticed and that there will be consequences for the actions.

Otherwise we have a senario where the ref is abused and the coach just appears to walk away unpunished.

 

[didds]

That is why you have a protocol to deal with it.

If the coach disappears iunto the public stand/outside the ntechnical area, that is as obvious. better still have the conversation loudly near a touchline.



Do you RC a bunch of chavs wandering across the pitch ? (I've seen it happen).

didds

 

[Browner]

he grabbed my arm and then pushed me in the chest. He then pushed past me using his shoulder to knock me back

.

At this point I abandon the fixture. This clubs Officers, the CB and the CB Disciplinary committee and my Referee Society can then discuss whether or not referees will be provided to this club UNTIL they have demonstrated an active deterrent programme for ensuring referee respect/ protection from assault.

This club will remain on my 'volunteer' banned list, until I am satisfied with the way it is handled.

Failure to stand tough on this subject is the Thin End of the Wedge that concludes with serious referee assault.

 

[FlipFlop]

Contrary to any law or regulation available in RFU land. And most of the rest of the world.

Be careful with statements like that. You are making it up! Just because RFULand does it one way, doesn't mean the rest of the world does. Most of Europe have regulations that allow Red Carding anyone on the match sheet. I assume due to the presence of "soccer" mentality in many people. (note most of Europe have licences for players, coaches, officials - and all inside the rope must be on the sheet)

Side note: The laws do not require a red card to send anyone off, and using it (or not) should not influence anything afterwards, provided the correct forms are filled in.

 

[Browner]

Towards the end of the match, some players drew my attention to a black's coach who was standing near to the fifteen metre line on the opposite side of the pitch from where play was, waving his arms and screaming. I immediately stopped play and approached him. He continued shouting and waving his arms so I stopped perhaps five yards from him. He was shouting about one of his players having received a serious knock to his head.

When he had finished his tirade, which inluded much foul language, he let me know in no uncertain terms what he thought of my refereeing ability. I decided to dismiss him from the playing enclosure for abuse and to use a RC so that players and spectators alike know what is happening - the primary purpose of using a card in relation to a coach in my opinion.

However, even as I reached into my pocket, he grabbed my arm and then pushed me in the chest. He then pushed past me using his shoulder to knock me back. By his time, another black's coach had appeared to usher him off the pitch and, after I had spoken to him, the second coach, from the playing enclosure.

NM,

Having replied already, i now turned my thoughts to how to prevent ......

what happened to the 5yd gap betwxt you. Whilst i agree you shoudnt have to experience abuse i also suspect that you didnt do enoughor seek to 'preserve your space'

It might have been helpful if you'd turned to walk away from this tirade abusing coach and issued your 'public reprimanding' card from the safety of say 10m away , then keep him in your peripheral view but keep walking to put more distance between you. You will have achieved your desired result without being within pushing distance.

Any coach who then chases after you is publicly highlighted to all watchers ........ I doubt even he would've.

Just a thought.

 

[matty1194]

As to pulling legs, Crossref, all my stories are actually true - I sometimes think that I should get a tee shirt like that soccer player a couple of years back asking why does it always happen to me?

(MY BOLD AND UNDERLINE)

Because you make things up and things escalate!

Stop trying to adjust everyone/situation to your way of thinking and apply the Laws and regulations set out by your Society and RFU and then you shouldnt have all of these problems.

:shrug: