Penalty 1 metre from goal line ??

[RUGBYBOOT]

Gents, this has happened twice in 2 weeks (again yesterday)for me and I am beginning to question my judgement.

On both occasions I awarded a full penalty to the attacking side virtually on the opposition try line (1 metre out) - I made the mark which was 1 metre from the line - the defending side were screaming that it must be on the 5 metre line. I disagreed telling them it was only 5 metres for a scrum (if selected) or lineout if kicked into touch. Both occasions the team tapped and drove over - try awarded.

On both occasions the players kept on and on about it insisting I was wrong and should have gone 5 metres out to make the penalty mark ?

Was I right or wrong ??

Thanks

 

[Ian_Cook]

Gents, this has happened twice in 2 weeks (again yesterday)for me and I am beginning to question my judgement.

On both occasions I awarded a full penalty to the attacking side virtually on the opposition try line (1 metre out) - I made the mark which was 1 metre from the line - the defending side were screaming that it must be on the 5 metre line. I disagreed telling them it was only 5 metres for a scrum (if selected) or lineout if kicked into touch. Both occasions the team tapped and drove over - try awarded.

On both occasions the players kept on and on about it insisting I was wrong and should have gone 5 metres out to make the penalty mark ?

Was I right or wrong ??

Thanks

They were right, and you were wrong

LAW 21.2 WHERE PENALTY AND FREE KICKS ARE TAKEN

(a) The kicker must take the penalty or free kick at the mark or anywhere behind it on a line through the mark. If the place for a penalty or free kick is within 5 metres of the opponents’ goal line, the mark for the kick is 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the place ofinfringement.

(b) When a penalty or free kick is awarded to the defending team in in-goal, the mark for the kick is at the place of infringement. When a penalty or free kick is awarded to the attacking team in in-goal, the mark for the kick is in the field of play, 5 metres from the goal line, in
line with the place of infringement.


Don't worry though. You wont be getting this one wrong again. :biggrin:

 

[Waspsfan]

Sorry rugbyboot, they were right and you were wrong.

Where are we at the moment with defensive penalties and free kicks within in goal and within 5 of the try line? My law book clearly states you can have defensive penalties and free kicks within in goal, but am I crazy in thinking there was a new directive / change to this? I vaguely remember it being discussed on here but cannot find it. Might just be a bit of Sunday morning madness!

 

[Davet]

You were wrong.

Attacking penalties cannot be closer than 5m from opponents goal line

Defending penalties can be within 5 of your own line.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Have you done ELRA1 & 2. This is not a question of judgement, but simple basic Law.

You were wrong. And a Law error like this, reduces your credibility with the players.

It may be worthwhile carrying a Law book with you and reading it bit by bit. I spent a whole season doing that.

 

[Fat Twin]

Dont Panic RugbyBoot. Yes it was wrong - but you were consistent in the match. You wont do it again now you know - so you can learn and move on.

You can pick up some great points on the forum and read the law book and attend the society meetings.

Head up and keep going fella!

 

[RUGBYBOOT]

Have you done ELRA1 & 2. This is not a question of judgement, but simple basic Law.

You were wrong. And a Law error like this, reduces your credibility with the players.

It may be worthwhile carrying a Law book with you and reading it bit by bit. I spent a whole season doing that.

Thanks to all who pointed out my mistake - and for letting me down easily !! much appreciated - let myself down a bit there, won't happen again.

Simon Thomas, you weren't my headmaster in the 70's were you ???

 

[dave_clark]

Thanks to all who pointed out my mistake - and for letting me down easily !! much appreciated - let myself down a bit there, won't happen again.

don't fret it - we've all done things like that. even the top guys.

don't worry about ST - he comes across a bit grumpy at times but i'm sure he's a nice chap deep down :biggrin: :wink:

 

[Davet]

don't fret it - we've all done things like that. even the top guys.

"Sure, and don't be kicking the ball out the ruck now, eh?"

 

[Taff]

... Where are we at the moment with defensive penalties and free kicks within in goal and within 5 of the try line? My law book clearly states you can have defensive penalties and free kicks within in goal, but am I crazy in thinking there was a new directive / change to this? I vaguely remember it being discussed on here but cannot find it.

Here you go Waspsfan; click on THIS thread.

Attacking penalties cannot be closer than 5m from opponents goal line. Defending penalties can be within 5 of your own line.

You sure on this? My understanding is that the mark for a PK and FK is a minimum of 5m regardless of whether its a defensive or attacking PK. :chin:

 

[Simon Thomas]

Thanks to all who pointed out my mistake - and for letting me down easily !! much appreciated - let myself down a bit there, won't happen again.

Simon Thomas, you weren't my headmaster in the 70's were you ???

hardly, I was at school myself in early 70s !

I am the Hampshire Society Chairman, and we (and the Clubs who we supply referees to) expect our members and post ELRA club refs to know the basic Laws.

I know that Kent's Chairman Graeme C and senior members like Terry M would offer the same advice.

 

[OB..]

You sure on this? My understanding is that the mark for a PK and FK is a minimum of 5m regardless of whether its a defensive or attacking PK. :chin:

The 2011 law book has muddied the waters in some respects (stop giggling at the back there!).

Law 21.2

(a) [...] If the mark for a penalty or free kick is within 5 metres of the opponents' goal line, the mark for the kick is 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the place of infringement.
(b) When a penalty or free kick is awarded in in-goal, the mark for the kick is in the field of play, 5 metres from the goal line, in line with the place of infringement.

Paragraph (b) has been changed, but (a) has not. Strictly speaking this means that if a penalty is awarded to the defending team 1m from its line, the kick is taken there, whereas if the penalty had been 1m inside in-goal it would be taken on the 5m line.

It would make more sense to say all such penalties are on the 5m line.

 

[RUGBYBOOT]

hardly, I was at school myself in early 70s !

I am the Hampshire Society Chairman, and we (and the Clubs who we supply referees to) expect our members and post ELRA club refs to know the basic Laws.

I know that Kent's Chairman Graeme C and senior members like Terry M would offer the same advice.

It was a mistake that I made and have freely admitted. Whilst I agree with you I don't much care for the manner in which you deliver your comments. I suppose you never made any mistakes when you started ref'ing let alone admitted in open forum !!

I mistakenly thought that the purpose of rugby refs was discuss where we went wrong and to help others - you clearly have a different view !!!

Just to clarify this was a level 14 game not Friday nights international !!

 

[PaulDG]

You sure on this? My understanding is that the mark for a PK and FK is a minimum of 5m regardless of whether its a defensive or attacking PK. :chin:

Yes.

5m for attackers, but the place of the offence (etc.) for defenders.

 

[Davet]

Rugbyboot

It is of no matter if it's a Friday night L14 or a Twickenham international.

If you make basic law errors then it reduces your credibility with the players, who will start question your decisions at other times.

You may or may not the tone of a comment, that's not the point - the point is that the comment is designed to make you a better ref.

So be friends with the law book - read it regularly, browse through it and then envision the sort of plays that arise from it in your mind... so if they did that... then ... and check the book for clarity.

That way when challenged you will not only be confident, but correct.

We've all made mistakes - I KNOW Simon has, so have I, so has OB, so has KML1 and even (I suspect) BCM666. But the way forward is not to stand on injured dignity and pride, just get on with getting better.

 

[Dixie]

Well Rugbyboot, I'll stand up for you here. I think you've been badly served by a grumpy ST (he's usually far more genial, but can on occasion be a stickler for quality among anyone with the qualification), and Davet is toadying to his Society chairman here :wink: :Looser: .

Comments such as these do nothing to help the lurkers to take the plunge into the open forum - and we need newbies like yourself, because you ask the questions that all the inexperienced lurkers desperately want to ask themselves. The fact that your question has elicited out-of-date information from the very experienced Ian Cook, and confusion from relatively recent Taff, indicates that the question was by no means a daft one - in fact, exctly the sort of thing we need to make certain we all remain current.

So I'd urge you to treat ST's grumpiness as the onset of curmudgeonliness in a decent fellow of a certain age, to resolve not to let it put you off asking the next question, and to continue to use RugbyRefs.com as your off-field friend, ensuring that your on-field decisions are as good as they can be. Please bear with us - we need your questions as much as you need our answers!

 

[chopper15]

Wish I could put words together like that, Dixie.

Thought those face thingies were a mistake, tho'. . . . diluted the tone somewhat. :wink:

 

[RUGBYBOOT]

Well Rugbyboot, I'll stand up for you here. I think you've been badly served by a grumpy ST (he's usually far more genial, but can on occasion be a stickler for quality among anyone with the qualification), and Davet is toadying to his Society chairman here :wink: :Looser: .

Comments such as these do nothing to help the lurkers to take the plunge into the open forum - and we need newbies like yourself, because you ask the questions that all the inexperienced lurkers desperately want to ask themselves. The fact that your question has elicited out-of-date information from the very experienced Ian Cook, and confusion from relatively recent Taff, indicates that the question was by no means a daft one - in fact, exctly the sort of thing we need to make certain we all remain current.

So I'd urge you to treat ST's grumpiness as the onset of curmudgeonliness in a decent fellow of a certain age, to resolve not to let it put you off asking the next question, and to continue to use RugbyRefs.com as your off-field friend, ensuring that your on-field decisions are as good as they can be. Please bear with us - we need your questions as much as you need our answers!

Cheers mate - I have broad shoulders and will carry on using the forum but comments such as I have read today have left me wondering whether or not ref'ing is such a good idea.

I will make mistakes have been telling everyone I know how helpful I have found 'rugby refs' . I just wonder if those who are meant to encourage, guide and support new refs should provide feedback in such a manner - should they question their ability to do so ? Who assesses their assessments ?

What I didn't say was that I was called at 11 am as the arranged referee had pulled out and so I stepped in or there would not have been a game at all - I ask nothing for that other than to make a point.

 

[Taff]

5m for attackers, but the place of the offence (etc.) for defenders.

Wasn't that what the 2010 LoTG said (including PK awarded in-goal) but I thought the recent clarification (which I assume will be in the 2011 version) changed it.

... I will make mistakes ....

Errrr .... we will ALL make mistakes RB. In my first game I awarded scrums on the 5m line for not straight throw ins at a LO. In fact I awarded a few of them until a 14yr old pointed out my mistake. Trust me, you will learn more from here than you will from any course, but remember there's no such thing as a daft question. :wink:

Perhaps the ability to post questions anonymously may be worth thinking about to encourage more of them? :chin:

 

[PaulDG]

Cheers mate - I have broad shoulders and will carry on using the forum but comments such as I have read today have left me wondering whether or not ref'ing is such a good idea.

I will make mistakes have been telling everyone I know how helpful I have found 'rugby refs'

It's a good idea.

All Simon is trying to say is that, yes, sorry mate, that really was a bad error - we all make mistakes but you do have to get the basic Law right or you lose credibility with the players. (They don't know what should happen if a 22m drop out is bodged when there are opposition players still in the 22, so as long as you're confident you can get away with anything with the obscure stuff - but the basics of penalties do need sorting.)

When that happens, the next thing you know they're taking the law into their own hands and there's a 30-way fight on the pitch.

And, where Simon does have a point is that your account suggested this was the second time this has happened - as a new ref, uncertain of what is and what is not "right", the time to check up (have a flick through the Law book as Simon said before you go up for a beer) was that first time.