[Law] Penalty & kicking tea

[Christy]

Question , if i may.
Team are awarded a penalty.( middle pitch at opposition 22 )
Very kickable distance
Team awarded penalty picks up ball ,,
Coach / similar starts to run on pitch with kicking tea in his pocket ...
He makes it past 5 meter side line.
His players decide to tap & go ,,& score try .
( this all happens very quickly ).

What would you do.
Award try,
Or suggest kicking tea on pitch ( coach is smart alec ,,no ref tea in my pocket ).
Has he now become an extra man on pitch..

Look forward to your views.

 

[Taff]

Once the tee in on the pitch, there's no going back for me.

"Sorry mate. The tee is on; you'll have to kick for goal".

 

[4eyesbetter]

I've got this fantastic mental image of the coach in full morning dress running an elaborate tea set onto the field for the kicker to refresh himself before he kicks. "One lump or two, sir?" Talk about a thug's game played by gentlemen...

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Good question if this is your first on rugby refs

But the answer is easy and covered directly by law.

I'd ping the coach for 16 players on field and PK to opposition at 5m mark where he stepped on the field. "tee in my pocket, ref"

"You look like a player" I says

 

[didds]

i think PKing the coach as a 16th player is being ridiculously officious.

didds

 

[thepercy]

I've got this fantastic mental image of the coach in full morning dress running an elaborate tea set onto the field for the kicker to refresh himself before he kicks. "One lump or two, sir?" Talk about a thug's game played by gentlemen...

And if it's an early morning kickoff and there's a chill in the air, maybe one for the referee as well.

 

[Staffs_Ref]

Once the tee in on the pitch, there's no going back for me.

"Sorry mate. The tee is on; you'll have to kick for goal".

Taff is absolutely right and this is set out clearly in law 21.4 (c):
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]No delay. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular][/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If a kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick a penalty kick at goal, the kick must be taken within one minute from the time the player indicates the intention to kick at goal. The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground. The player must complete the kick within one minute even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. If the one minute is exceeded, the kick is disallowed, a scrum is ordered at the place of the mark and the opponents throw in the ball. For any other type of kick, the kick must be taken without undue delay.[/FONT]

 

[thepercy]

If the captain called for posts, then no, no try. If not did his marginal pitch invasion affect the game? Did he obstruct a defender, did he touch the ball, did he wave his arms and scream like a madman? Was it some sort of scheme designed to distract the defense? If so, send the coach/tee carrier out of the playing enclosure, restart at the place the game would have started before the offending incident, write your report. If it didn't affect the game, give the try, then as the coach is bringing the tee for the conversation, kindly ask him to stay off the pitch and/or stay in the TZ (if you are lucky enough to have one) until I point to the posts and the TJ/ARs are running behind to the posts.

 

[Dickie E]

No try. Blow time off. "Captain, do you want shot at goal or something else?"

I hope all that malarky about 16 players was a joke. No wonder referees have a bad name.

 

[ChrisR]

Rugby is the player's game. The decision to kick at the posts is that of the skipper. If the tap is taken correctly before the skipper indicates posts then it's "Play on!".

As for "The intention to kick is signaled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground." I have hi-lited the operative word.

If the skipper is still mulling his options, the coach arrives with the tee and the SH taps and scores ... well, manage it.

 

[Dickie E]

If the skipper is still mulling his options, the coach arrives with the tee and the SH taps and scores ... well, manage it.

I have no idea what that means

 

[OB..]

This is a case when thw law is an ass.
[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]No delay. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If a kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick a penalty kick at goal, the kick must be taken within one minute from the time the player indicates the intention to kick at goal. The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground. [/FONT][/LAWS]
Who is "the kicker"? Who decides that? The tee-boy will not be the kicker, so why should he be allowed to make the decision decision?

To me it is clear that the person responsible for taking the decision is the captain.

[LAWS]21.5 (b) [...] [FONT=fs_blakeregular]The referee may enquire of the kicker as to the intention.[/FONT][/LAWS]How do you know if the person holding teh ball is "the kicker"?

What do you do if a player says he is going to kick at goal and the captain (you do at least know who he is) says, "no. Kick for touch"?

 

[The Fat]

This is a case when thw law is an ass.
[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]No delay. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If a kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick a penalty kick at goal, the kick must be taken within one minute from the time the player indicates the intention to kick at goal. The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground. [/FONT][/LAWS]
Who is "the kicker"? Who decides that? The tee-boy will not be the kicker, so why should he be allowed to make the decision decision?

To me it is clear that the person responsible for taking the decision is the captain.

[LAWS]21.5 (b) [...] [FONT=fs_blakeregular]The referee may enquire of the kicker as to the intention.[/FONT][/LAWS]How do you know if the person holding teh ball is "the kicker"?

What do you do if a player says he is going to kick at goal and the captain (you do at least know who he is) says, "no. Kick for touch"?

I always ask the captain, unless someone has tapped and gone quickly (bloody upstart No.9s).
Sometimes you will get several players arguing over what to do so it is always best to settle the argument by ignoring the squabblers and just ask the captain.

 

[Dickie E]

What do you do if a player says he is going to kick at goal and the captain (you do at least know who he is) says, "no. Kick for touch"?

This ain't rocket surgery. "Guys, make up your mind please ... is it shot at goal or kick for touch?" Applying some sort of "whoever I hear first wins" criteria is jobsworthesque.

Same applies when lineout throw not straight. "Scrum, scrum, scrum." "No, Lineout, lineout, lineout". "C'mon guys, get it sorted".

As Fat says, it will invariably be the captain's call

 

[Ian_Cook]

Taff is absolutely right and this is set out clearly in law 21.4 (c):
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]No delay. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If a kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick a penalty kick at goal, the kick must be taken within one minute from the time the player indicates the intention to kick at goal. The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground. The player must complete the kick within one minute even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. If the one minute is exceeded, the kick is disallowed, a scrum is ordered at the place of the mark and the opponents throw in the ball. For any other type of kick, the kick must be taken without undue delay.[/FONT]

Once the tee in on the pitch, there's no going back for me.

"Sorry mate. The tee is on; you'll have to kick for goal".

Err, no, you both just failed that question in your Law exam.

[LAWS]21.4 PENALTY AND FREE KICK OPTIONS AND REQUIREMENTS
c) No delay. If a kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick a penalty kick at goal, the
kick must be taken within one minute from the time the player indicates the intention to
kick at goal. The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or
when the player makes a mark on the ground. The player must complete the kick within
one minute even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. If the one minute is
exceeded, the kick is disallowed, a scrum is ordered at the place of the mark and the
opponents throw in the ball. For any other type of kick, the kick must be taken without
undue delay.[/LAWS]

The coach has just crossed the 5m line, the mark is in the centre of the 22m. On any normal sized ground, that coach is at least 30m away.. the kicking tee has not "arrived"

 

[Staffs_Ref]

The coach has just crossed the 5m line, the mark is in the centre of the 22m. On any normal sized ground, that coach is at least 30m away.. the kicking tee has not "arrived"

Now you're just playing with semantics, Ian ... and you have just failed your linguistics exam.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Now you're just playing with semantics, Ian ... and you have just failed your linguistics exam.

Not really.

I have always believed that the tee "arrives" when it is near or within reach of the kicker, and there is actually a Law definition for "near" - it on page 7 of the 2016 Law book

[LAWS]DEFINITIONS
Near: Within one metre.[/LAWS]

That is borne out by a number of instances in high profile games where the water carrier has been bringing on the tee when a tap kick was taken and a try scored from it. Two that come to mind are

Wales v Argentina 2009

New Zealand v England 1st test 2014

 

[crossref]

I don't think the answer to this question lies in the close scrutiny of the Law book (which as OB. observes is particularly badly worded), it's got to be a common sense approach.

The concept of 'intention to kick' became very confused in the Law book because they have muddled two different things
- what is the thing that irrecovably commits the side to making a kick?
- when does the clock start

these two things got muddled together after a clarification request about timing, and subsequently careless tweak to the Law

 

[Staffs_Ref]

Not really.

I have always believed that the tee "arrives" when it is near or within reach of the kicker

Thank you for for illustrating my point so well. You are applying the law based on your own personal definition of what constitutes 'the arrival of the tee'. Others may, quite legitimately, take the view that the tee entering the playing area constitutes 'the arrival of the tee'.

 

[DocY]

Can't we just use common sense? Has the guy with the T had any sort of material affect on the game? No - award the try, Yes - decide whether you're going to insist on the kick or give a scrum.

I think the whole thing with the T is a red herring. Would you allow the quick penalty if the coach was running on with water? Apply the same criteria.