[Law] Penalty & kicking tea

[L'irlandais]

I've got this fantastic mental image of the coach in full morning dress running an elaborate tea set onto the field for the kicker to refresh himself before he kicks. "One lump or two, sir?" Talk about a thug's game played by gentlemen...

oh dear, perhaps the thread title should have read "Picking of Kenalty Tea"

 

[didds]

Thank you for for illustrating my point so well. You are applying the law based on your own personal definition of what constitutes 'the arrival of the tee'. Others may, quite legitimately, take the view that the tee entering the playing area constitutes 'the arrival of the tee'.

Well I am broadly in the Ian camp for tee arrival. Its not beyond likelihood in the grass roots that a PK awarded 15m out, 5m in, on the left hand corner could see a tee carrier enter at or near the "kicking" side's own goal line on the opposite side getting on for 100 metres away. has the tee "arrived" as soon as the tee holder enters the pitch there? Preventing a tap and score at a poorly undefended goal line 100 metres away?

Reductio ad absurdium that may be but if you follow this line - and it is your prerogative to do so of course - there must be a distance whereby this question arises.

didds

 

[DocY]

Well I am broadly in the Ian camp for tee arrival. Its not beyond likelihood in the grass roots that a PK awarded 15m out, 5m in, on the left hand corner could see a tee carrier enter at or near the "kicking" side's own goal line on the opposite side getting on for 100 metres away. has the tee "arrived" as soon as the tee holder enters the pitch there? Preventing a tap and score at a poorly undefended goal line 100 metres away?

Reductio ad absurdium that may be but if you follow this line - and it is your prerogative to do so of course - there must be a distance whereby this question arises.

didds

I think that's the crux of it. Should the non-kicking team reasonably think "it's okay lads, the T is coming, no need to worry about the tap" insist on the kick. If they're obviously paying no attention to the guy starting his jog from the other end of the pitch, allow the tap.

 

[crossref]

Well I am broadly in the Ian camp for tee arrival. Its not beyond likelihood in the grass roots that a PK awarded 15m out, 5m in, on the left hand corner could see a tee carrier enter at or near the "kicking" side's own goal line on the opposite side getting on for 100 metres away. has the tee "arrived" as soon as the tee holder enters the pitch there? Preventing a tap and score at a poorly undefended goal line 100 metres away?

didds

of course on the other hand the tee holder could be standing in the corner where the PK is.
In that instance when he comes on to the pitch, quite close by, brandishing a tee, you may well consider that allowing a tap penalty would NOT be fair on the oppo

(but very possibly still allowing the captain a choice of what to do, and letting him kick for touch if he wants to)

 

[The Fat]

Surely the tee arrives when it is with or very close to the kicker.
The time for the kick doesn't start when the water boy crosses the touch line, it starts when the kicker has the tee (or alternatively makes a mark or is handed the sand bucket).
If a water boy starts to run the tee out some 60m away and the #9 takes a quick tap, I am playing on.
The decision to take a quick tap is with the guy with the ball. Once he taps and goes, we are back in general play. If his captain had wanted to kick at goal, that is a confrontation the captain needs to have with his #9 (usual culprit) at a later time.
If they are thinking their options through, I'll ask the captain what he/she wants to do.
When a PK is awarded, I don't turn to the sideline and shout out to the coach or water boy "What do you want to do?"

 

[crossref]

in normal circumstances

- the arrival of the tee is NOT what commits the team to making a kick (they have already indicated that, and the ref has signalled, and that's what causes the tee to arrive)
- the arrival of the tee merely starts the clock.

It would all be a lot simpler if the watch started when the referee indicates the kick at goal.

 

[didds]

of course on the other hand the tee holder could be standing in the corner where the PK is.
In that instance when he comes on to the pitch, quite close by, brandishing a tee, you may well consider that allowing a tap penalty would NOT be fair on the oppo

(but very possibly still allowing the captain a choice of what to do, and letting him kick for touch if he wants to)

Absolutely. But that presumably comes under Iain's "within a metre" law levering (WADR to Iain)

hence the reductio ad absurdum bit.

There will be a line where the distance is such that there would be a question as to whether it is material etc etc etc. Which bwas my point - rather than the suggestion that "tee on pitch = tee has arrived" hard stance.

Then there's the guy comes on the pitch with a tee in his hand - cos he carries it - but he has actually come on with a water bottle for another player at the same time. So he is a tee carrier but not a tee provider at that moment. And the 100m away tee carrier that is bellowing "I've got the tee|!! I've got the tee! And the oppo are looking at him maybe a tad puzzled. Etc.

Its just illustrating that rarely do hard and fast "ways to do things" work in reality.

didds

 

[The Fat]

of course on the other hand the tee holder could be standing in the corner where the PK is.
In that instance when he comes on to the pitch, quite close by, brandishing a tee, you may well consider that allowing a tap penalty would NOT be fair on the oppo

(but very possibly still allowing the captain a choice of what to do, and letting him kick for touch if he wants to)

If the water boy carrying the tee is close by and just runs onto the field (obviously making the oppo think that there will be a kick at goal), that water boy has just cost his team the opportunity to take a quick tap. He is on the field when he is not allowed to be there.
1. Whistle time off
2. Motion to water boy to leave the field
3. Ask captain what he wants to do but tell him he cannot go quickly as time is off.

If he wants to kick at goal, blow time on, signal for kick at goal and allow the tee carrier back on.
If he wants to kick for touch, blow time on and repeat signal for PK.
If he wants to tap and go, make sure oppo are back 10, make a mark and blow time on

 

[Dixie]

[

Well I am broadly in the Ian camp for tee arrival. Its not beyond likelihood in the grass roots that a PK awarded 15m out, 5m in, on the left hand corner could see a tee carrier enter at or near the "kicking" side's own goal line on the opposite side getting on for 100 metres away. has the tee "arrived" as soon as the tee holder enters the pitch there? Preventing a tap and score at a poorly undefended goal line 100 metres away?

Reductio ad absurdium that may be but if you follow this line - and it is your prerogative to do so of course - there must be a distance whereby this question arises.

didds

Don't you just hate it when you've come to a thread late, read it from the beginning, ticked the five threads you want to quote in your killer response to the refs in question and then some bloody coach comes along and says it all in post 22?

To me, arrival means more than being on the field of play. But if it is arriving and the oppo relax their guard because of that, I will be thinking seriously about equity and materiality. A law not yet referenced in this discussion is 6.A.5 (c):

[LAWS]6.A.5 (c) A person carrying a kicking tee may enter the field of play after a team has indicated that they intend to kick at goal after that team has been awarded a penalty kick or scored a try.[/LAWS] The emphasis is mine.

If the entry of the tee-carrier before the indication of the intent to kick causes the defence to relax, bring it back, put time off and allow the PK to be taken wither by a kick at goal or when the tee-carrier is off the pitch.

 

[Dickie E]

[

If the entry of the tee-carrier before the indication of the intent to kick causes the defence to relax, bring it back, put time off and allow the PK to be taken wither by a kick at goal or when the tee-carrier is off the pitch.

Ed Zachary

 

[Dickie E]

[

If the entry of the tee-carrier before the indication of the intent to kick causes the defence to relax, bring it back, put time off and allow the PK to be taken wither by a kick at goal or when the tee-carrier is off the pitch.

Ed Zachary

 

[ChrisR]

Until the skipper calls for a kick at the posts, and the referee points to the posts to call in the TJs, the kick may be taken in any manner (except place kick for touch) so a tap kick will still be on. If the non-kicking side are mislead by any other activity and relax their guard that is their problem.

Therefore the tee should not be on the pitch until the referee points to posts. I wouldn't interfere with the options of the kicking side just because the coach, T-boy, water boy or Border Collie ran on the pitch with the tee. To me the arrival of the tee starts the clock on the kick, nothing else.

 

[The Fat]

Until the skipper calls for a kick at the posts, and the referee points to the posts to call in the TJs, the kick may be taken in any manner (except place kick for touch) so a tap kick will still be on. If the non-kicking side are mislead by any other activity and relax their guard that is their problem.

Therefore the tee should not be on the pitch until the referee points to posts. I wouldn't interfere with the options of the kicking side just because the coach, T-boy, water boy or Border Collie ran on the pitch with the tee. To me the arrival of the tee starts the clock on the kick, nothing else.

So blue receive a PK 15m from red's goal line and on the 15m line near the crowd/tech zone/coaches whatever. Red players are retreating towards their 5m line while blue are deciding what option to take.
Meanwhile, blue team's water boy crosses the touch line 12m from the red goal line carrying the kicking tee. Just before he reaches the mark for the PK, blue #9 sees that red have "relaxed" and takes a quick tap and scores a try.

Are you saying that on one hand, red should just suck eggs because they thought blue were going to kick at goal and on the other hand, blue should benefit from having the tee carrier act as a decoy when he shouldn't even be in the field of play?

 

[ChrisR]

Yes. Absolutely. The defenders have to read the opponents and respond to signals and instructions from the referee. Period.

If the defenders are distracted by anything else that is their problem, not the referees.

 

[The Fat]

Yes. Absolutely. The defenders have to read the opponents and respond to signals and instructions from the referee. Period.

If the defenders are distracted by anything else that is their problem, not the referees.

Did the blue team respond to the referee's signals and instructions by having the water boy wait for the ref to signal a kick at goal before entering the field of play in close proximity to both teams?

 

[DocY]

Yes. Absolutely. The defenders have to read the opponents and respond to signals and instructions from the referee. Period.

If the defenders are distracted by anything else that is their problem, not the referees.

If the waterboy, T-carrier, or whoever has come onto the pitch without the referee's permission then some sort of infringement has been committed, and if this person affects play it's a material infringement.

 

[ChrisR]

From a much earlier post of mine:

If the skipper is still mulling his options, the coach arrives with the tee and the SH taps and scores ... well, manage it.

Yes, situations can arise that require the referee to step in, halt the proceedings, call back the SH, get the skipper to decide on options, admonish the coach/water boy with the tee, pet the dog and restart play with the original PK. That, Dickie E, is what I mean by "manage it".

 

[Dickie E]

From a much earlier post of mine:

If the skipper is still mulling his options, the coach arrives with the tee and the SH taps and scores ... well, manage it.

Yes, situations can arise that require the referee to step in, halt the proceedings, call back the SH, get the skipper to decide on options, admonish the coach/water boy with the tee, pet the dog and restart play with the original PK. That, Dickie E, is what I mean by "manage it".

That appears contrary to your post #32

 

[Drift]

Good question if this is your first on rugby refs

But the answer is easy and covered directly by law.

I'd ping the coach for 16 players on field and PK to opposition at 5m mark where he stepped on the field. "tee in my pocket, ref"

"You look like a player" I says

What?!?!
Where is the empathy?

 

[leaguerefaus]

This is the second thread in which a few members have suggested penalising a non-player as a player. I'm not sure in what way you think that is acceptable at all. IMO it shows a huge lack of management and empathy if you think the only tool you have is the ability to penalise.

Everything looks like a nail if you only have a hammer.