Penalty Try

[Taffy]

This from today. Any thoughts appreciated please.

Under 16 cup match. Very competitive.

Red attacking for a good few minutes. Three breakdown offences, all in the red zone, getting close to a yellow card in my view.

Next offence. Penalty to Red on around 8 metres. Blue run back to the goal line, red takes it quickly and targets an area where three slow forwards have their backs to him. They have not yet made the goal line, but in seeing him take it quickly ignore the fact they are offside and tackle around 1 metre out and hold him up. I take the view that if they had not tackled him, a try would probably have been scored. I award a penalty try to howls from Blue. It was one of this instant decisions that I explained to Blue captain, but was a bit unsure when going back to the halfway line. Blue said "you have to give us a chance ref! ". I'm not sure I do actually. But was I right?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Quick thinking by the SH and correct decision by you. The try only needs to have been "probable" not certain.

The important thing here is that the retiring players turned to tackle him before retiring to the goal line thereby intentionally taking part on the game before retiring the required distance.

I have heard some players argue that because its offside in General Play, the offside players are made onside when the SH has run 5m

[LAWS]11.3 BEING PUT ONSIDE BY OPPONENTS
In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.

(a) Runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball runs 5 metres, the offside player is put onside.[/LAWS]

Do not not believe them, they are wrong!

The Law that applies here is this one....

[LAWS]21.7 WHAT THE OPPOSING TEAM MUST DO AT A PENALTY KICK

(a) Must run from the mark. The opposing team must immediately run towards their own goal line until they are at least 10 metres away from the mark for the penalty kick, or until they have reached their goal line if that is nearer the mark.

(b) Must keep running. Even if the penalty kick is taken and the kicker’s team is playing the ball, opposing players must keep running until they have retired the necessary distance. They must not take part in the game until they have done so.

(c) Kick taken quickly. If the penalty kick is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retire, they will not be penalised for this. However, they must continue to retire as described in 21.7(b) above or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark
has run in front of them, before they take part in the game.
[/LAWS]

For a FK, there is a similarly worded Law 21.8


However, if the SH simply runs into the back of retiring players, I would take a different view.

[LAWS]21.9 CONTRIVED INFRINGEMENTS AT THE PENALTY KICK
If the referee believes that the kicker’s team has contrived an infringement by their opponents, the referee does not award a further penalty but allows play to continue.

21.10 CONTRIVED INFRINGEMENTS AT THE FREE KICK
(a) The kicker must not pretend to kick. As soon as the kicker makes a move to kick, the
opponents may charge.
(b) If the referee believes that the kicker’s team has contrived an infringement by their opponents, the referee does not award a further free kick but allows play to continue.[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

A penalty try sounds right to me. (agree with Ian's caveat, but that doesn't seem to apply here.)

Did you give a YC as well? A deliberate offence that leads to a PT is normally a YC, plus did you say they were on a YC warning anyway?

 

[Taffy]

No, no yellow card. Realise now I should have, but in all the excitement forgot to!

 

[OB..]

Did you give a YC as well? A deliberate offence that leads to a PT is normally a YC, plus did you say they were on a YC warning anyway?

It was an offside offence, not really Foul Play. Technically if you considered it was deliberate ie they knew it was offside, that is under Law 10, but it is a bit of a gotcha.

 

[crossref]

I think it's a pretty cynical offence, though. I don't think it has to be foul play to justify a YC, seems to me any cynical offence designed to prevent a try could be a YC.

 

[OB..]

I think it's a pretty cynical offence, though.

That is for you to judge.

 

[crossref]

I think it's a pretty cynical offence, though.

That is for you to judge.

I agree, and really one would have to see it to make that judgement

 

[chbg]

And which one of the "three slow forwards" would you YC, if they were all equally liable?

 

[Simon Thomas]

No, no yellow card. Realise now I should have, but in all the excitement forgot to!

Referees don't do excitement - cool calm collected and objective should be your mantra.

 

[Simon Thomas]

And which one of the "three slow forwards" would you YC, if they were all equally liable?

The one who makes the actual tackle.

 

[talbazar]

It was an offside offence, not really Foul Play. Technically if you considered it was deliberate ie they knew it was offside, that is under Law 10, but it is a bit of a gotcha.

OB.., I might be wrong bu my understanding of the law is that you can only award a Penalty Try "if a try would probably have been scored but for foul play by the defending team" (Law 22.4).
Same reference to Foul Play in law 9.A.1 and in Law 10 (of course).

The only occurrence in the law where neither Foul Play nor Yellow Card is mentioned is in 12.1.f (Intentional knock or throw forward)...
But, how can a player intentionally knock the ball (under law 12) without intentionally infringing (under law 10)???

So in my humble opinion, in 99.99% of the case, if there is One culprit, there is a YC... No option from the law.

My 2 cents,
Pierre.

 

[Taffy]

Referees don't do excitement - cool calm collected and objective should be your mantra.

The voice of experience over the flapping grade 11 referee...........

 

[TheBFG]

I agree with OB, the PT and YC for a repeated offence is too much of a double whammy especially at that age, they've conceded 7 points a YC too might just be too much of sanction? And if you need to justify why you didn't give the YC to the other side, "didn't get the number of the offending player as there was 3 of them" :wink:

 

[OB..]

OB.., I might be wrong bu my understanding of the law is that you can only award a Penalty Try "if a try would probably have been scored but for foul play by the defending team" (Law 22.4).
Same reference to Foul Play in law 9.A.1 and in Law 10 (of course).

The only occurrence in the law where neither Foul Play nor Yellow Card is mentioned is in 12.1.f (Intentional knock or throw forward)...
But, how can a player intentionally knock the ball (under law 12) without intentionally infringing (under law 10)???

So in my humble opinion, in 99.99% of the case, if there is One culprit, there is a YC... No option from the law.

My 2 cents,
Pierre.

Foul play is an ambiguous concept. In common parlance it roughly equates to dangerous play rather than cheating. A Law 11 infringement is not in itself Foul Play under Law 10, which is why I brought in Intentional Offending. For me that means knowingly breaking the law, and does not cover mistakes or confusion. Moreover cheating is not in itself dangerous play.

 

[talbazar]

Foul play is an ambiguous concept. In common parlance it roughly equates to dangerous play rather than cheating. A Law 11 infringement is not in itself Foul Play under Law 10, which is why I brought in Intentional Offending. For me that means knowingly breaking the law, and does not cover mistakes or confusion. Moreover cheating is not in itself dangerous play.

I had to read that a few times.. It's getting late here :biggrin:

I don't believe "foul play" is that ambiguous... It's anything covered by Law 10 (which includes dangerous play).

But my point is, from the law we don't have a choice (as long as you've got a number as proposed by theBFG )
If a Foul Play prevent a probable try --> PT and YC

The argument "that wasn't a foul play" doesn't work... Because, if there is no foul play, there is no PT :chin:
[LAWS]../..but for foul play by the defending team../..[/LAWS]

Pierre.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Referees don't do excitement - cool calm collected and objective should be your mantra.

Cool calm collected and objective. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

View attachment 3038

 

[Browner]

This from today. Any thoughts appreciated please.

Under 16 cup match. Very competitive.

Red attacking for a good few minutes. Three breakdown offences, all in the red zone, getting close to a yellow card in my view.

Next offence. Penalty to Red on around 8 metres. Blue run back to the goal line, red takes it quickly and targets an area where three slow forwards have their backs to him. They have not yet made the goal line, but in seeing him take it quickly ignore the fact they are offside and tackle around 1 metre out and hold him up. I take the view that if they had not tackled him, a try would probably have been scored. I award a penalty try to howls from Blue. It was one of this instant decisions that I explained to Blue captain, but was a bit unsure when going back to the halfway line. Blue said "you have to give us a chance ref! ". I'm not sure I do actually. But was I right?

I gave PT three weeks ago, for exactly the same scenario (albeit from PK from 7m out ,and for adults ) I didn't double whammy either. But reading this thread gets me questioning that.

Should it always be PT+YC from a QTP taken from c.10m & less ?

 

[crossref]

you can award PT for reasons other than foul play - for instance we quite commonly see a PT after a succession of PK given away by the defenders at 5m scrums.

Or if you want insist that PT can ONLY be given if there is 'foul play' you have to include intentional offending in your definition of 'foul play'. Either way is fine.

 

[crossref]

I gave PT three weeks ago, for exactly the same scenario (albeit from PK from 7m out ,and for adults ) I didn't double whammy either. But reading this thread gets me questioning that.

Should it always be PT+YC from a QTP taken from c.10m & less ?

I think a PT would normally mean a YC -- but not "ALWAYS". there are times when it wouldn't. Multiple offenders might be one reason. Or an 'unlucky' penalty.