Pick & Drive or Hands in Ruck ?

[Yaweesh]

Hello Refs,

Usually if I see any calls I don't understand, it pops up on here pretty quickly and I get an answer, however..

LV cup; Scarlets v London Irish. Player bound in ruck near try line scoops the ball up with his right hand, whilst remaining bound with left arm, and dives over for a try. Ref: "he's the last man in the ruck, he's allowed to do that" or close to this.

A) Did I see it differently ?
B) Other than the typical "half-back digging" scenario to get the ball out, if your are in a ruck and bound to an opponent, can you detach & pick up the ball even if you are actively rucking ?

(Sorry for not having an exact reference, but I only caught the highlights, think I've got the right game - Nigel O. reffing).

Many thanks.

 

[Dixie]

Welcome Yaweesh. It sounds as though you've been a satisfied lurker to date - good to have you posting now. I didn't see the game, so can't comment on A. As to B, that's really a very good question, inviting other questions in its answer.

Any rucker can detach from the ruck and retire to the back foot (16.5c is headed Players Joining or Rejoining the ruck). If the detacher is the last man with the ball at his feet, then when he detaches, the ball is no longer in the ruck as he is no longer in the ruck. He's entitled to pick it up, as is anyone else who was onside when he datached. BUT by now he can't be actively rucking, as he's not bound into the ruck, which in any event no longer exists. In your description, it sounds like he was actively rucking, picked up the ball while still bound to a ruck that still existed, looked around then charged to the line. If that is really the case, he should have been penalised for handling the ball in the ruck - or the ref should have "managed" the situation by calling "Ball Out" as soon as he put a paw on the ball. By doing neither, the ref has erred badly - and as it led to a score this would be a "critical incident" - which is a Bad Thing at any level, and sometimes terminal at the elite level.

 

[Yaweesh]

Hello Dixie,
Yes - previously one of the silent majority who find these forums incredibly useful.

It is tricky without a clip of the incident. Maybe it was a "doesn't look right, but is" moment, which is why Nigel O. felt he had to explain it to the players.

In our minis games (U9-U12), we do seem to get more text book rucks than in the adult game i.e. two players bound over the ball - as opposed to two lines of players shoving at each other over a pile of bodies - so not unlike the 1v1 illustration in the IRB law book (p98), sometimes this gets to 2v2, but rarely more. In these situations we're obviously encouraging the players who are bound to keep contesting, and allow another player to come in (from onside of course) and play the ball, but I do think that any best practice should be founded in law if possible.

If the scenario in the law book picture occurred, and one of the 2 players decided to unbind and pick the ball up, would you ping him?

Many thanks.

PS: I realise now that this should perhaps have been in the Elite Ref section as it was N.O.

 

[Yaweesh]

Apologies - in trying to find a clip of the original incident, I've come across the match report which indicates that what I thought was a ruck was actually a pick up from the back of a disintegrated 5m scrum, where I guess the prop had become the "last man". Nigel's comments make a bit more sense to me now.

Waited 4 years then asked the wrong question - gutted !

 

[Taff]

Apologies - in trying to find a clip of the original incident, I've come across the match report which indicates that what I thought was a ruck was actually a pick up from the back of a disintegrated 5m scrum, where I guess the prop had become the "last man". Nigel's comments make a bit more sense to me now. Waited 4 years then asked the wrong question - gutted !

Funnily enough I rewound it and looked at it a couple of times when it was on live, so it wasn't such a daft question. :chin:

The scrum ends when

• the hindmost player unbinds
• with the ball at his feet and
• picks it up.

How strict are refs on the order? Ie will some insist he unbinds and then picks up, or can he pick up and then unbind, or is it immaterial? Now I can easily see a possible problem where a No8 picks up the ball (still in the scrum) while still bound because technically he's guilty of handling in the scrum. Which I guess is what the opposition were thinking when they questioned Nigel Owens.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I haven't seen the game (we don't get LV Cup here in NZ) however, going by the descriptions here, the last man may not have technically been "bound" (hand to armpit).

TBH, I don't think an elite referee is going to be jobsworth about the order of a sequence of events that takes place in milliseconds. If the last man picks the ball up fractionally before he lets go at the back of a ruck, most referees at elite level might consider it not material.

 

[Yaweesh]

Thanks guys,

Taff - phew ! - at least you substantiated the "doesn't look right" part of my question. I think it was the way the player scooped up the ball with one hand whilst still in the typical: scrum/ruck, body position, which does lead you to question what was he doing with his other hand ?
Ian - absolutely right on the timing aspect - but I think it was done slowly enough for us to question the sequence of events.

I'm OK with the explanation now.
Many thanks.

 

[Simon Thomas]

usual interpretation I see used is if the ball is picked up at rearmost of scrum or ruck, it is out and holding player is "fair game" (whether he is bound or not). Anyone further forward picks up then it is a PK offence.

 

[Yaweesh]

Leaving aside the original LV cup event - which I think I'm now happy with.

Reference the following pics :



Assuming he could free himself from Blue's grip, would you allow Gold to pick up ?

And here - would you allow Blue 6 to pick up ? (assume you've not pinged Gold for offside !)

 

[ddjamo]

in both of the pictures there is still a contest for possession. once the ball is won, secured and "under" the winning side - then lets get on with it. digging the ball out of either of those would have me yelling to leave it.

that gold pillar does need to get out of there though - eh?

 

[crossref]

in both of the pictures there is still a contest for possession. once the ball is won, secured and "under" the winning side - then lets get on with it. digging the ball out of either of those would have me yelling to leave it.

that gold pillar does need to get out of there though - eh?

also five people, and a scrum half, have arived at the tackle. By now I'd expect the tackler to have released and rolled away, and the tackled player also.

 

[L'irlandais]

also five people, and a scrum half, have arived at the tackle. By now I'd expect the tackler to have released and rolled away, and the tackled player also.

There must be quite a few images in the iRB blurb which need to be redrawn to take account of the law changes in recent years.

 

[crossref]

(although every time I see this picture, I still think the PK I'd actually give is against blue 6 for standing on gold's hand - that could easily break his fingers)

 

[Taff]

.... TBH, I don't think an elite referee is going to be jobsworth about the order of a sequence of events that takes place in milliseconds. If the last man picks the ball up fractionally before he lets go at the back of a ruck, most referees at elite level might consider it not material.

Just to explore this further then, I assume there is a point when we (I mean refs generally) would ping the hindmost player from handling the ball in a ruck or scrum? Eg if the No8 picked up the ball still deep in the scrum, should we deem it immaterial or PK it? :chin:

For what it's worth my initial feeling is "if it looks wrong - it probably is".

 

[crossref]

if he picks it up and breaks, all in one movement, I don't think I am going to notice worry whether the pick up with one arm came slightly before/after the other arm released the bind. But if he picks it up, and remains bound, considering options / waiting for the best moment to go, then that's when you peep. Handling in scrum

 

[Yaweesh]

Hello,
Finally found the incident that prompted my original post, it was well after the scrum and was indeed a ruck. I still think I would have pinged Manu before he made his dive, although I doubt N.O. could see from his position that he had hands on from the moment he arrived at the ruck. I think this differs from the subtle manipulation of a won ball so that the SH can reach it.

http://www.itv.com/itvplayer/video/?Filter=304144

time: 39:50 in 2 tackled, 17&18 ruck, 21 at SH position

 

[crossref]

it's a great question - well done for finding it.

my instinct, watching it, is that it's not right, and ping him for handling in ruck... but I don't know.. perhaps it's OK? interested to hear what others think.

 

[ddjamo]

if you can pull it off that vid and post it - would like to see it. that link only shows in the UK.

 

[Yaweesh]

if you can pull it off that vid and post it - would like to see it. that link only shows in the UK.

Hi ddjamo, - it's a TV site; so likely to make any sort of ripping too tricky, for me anyway. If I do manage it, I'll drop you a note. (Although I'd also have to work out how to do that as well !)
Many thanks.

 

[Taff]

if you can pull it off that vid and post it - would like to see it. that link only shows in the UK.

You might struggle, but in a nutshell:

• Red BC goes for the goal line but is tackled approx 0.5m short
• 2 Red team-mates go in through the gate and form a ruck.
• The ball is on the floor and still in the ruck
• The SH actually picks up the ball (we'd allow that) but while it's still in the ruck, one of the team mates who formed the ruck (in front of the SH) grabs it with his left hand and dives over to score.
• Somebody obviously questions it off mike, as NO says "He's the last man in the ruck. He's entitled to pick up"