Player red carded in an unsanctioned friendly 10s match at the field of a 15s tournament, is the player out for the day at the tournament?

[jdeagro]

This is at an off-season 15s tournament (20-minute halves) in NJ, USA. Team A didn't bring enough players to play their first game so they forfeited and suggested an unsanctioned friendly 10s match with the original Team B they were supposed to play. The forfeit was recorded on the books in the tournament prior to the start of the friendly match.

10s matched ensued at the location of the tournament and a referee of the tournament volunteered to officiate the unsanctioned match. A few players from Team B were donated to play with Team A to establish a full enough side for the friendly 10s match.

During the game, a player on Team B got red carded.

In a normal sanctioned tournament match, that would mean that player is done for the remainder of the tournament. But how does that work with a unsanctioned friendly match that took place at the location of the tournament but was not part of the tournament itself?

 

[Volun-selected]

I believe that, technically, all matches count the same - even friendly/social matches. If it was a match and not just a developmental session then I think we’re obligated to report it and the player is done.

I also suspect the ‘type’ of red may influence it too - more likely to hear wails of protest off a red handed out for a moment of brainf@rt dumbass-ery but out and out thuggery would see less fuss.

 

[Dickie E]

The ref's job is to show the red card and ensure the tournament organiser is aware. Any sanction will then be in his/her hands. I expect this type of incident wouldn't be specifically covered in the tournament rules so a common sense decision likely.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Much depends on your local / union rules. We (WRU) cannot referee "unsanctioned" games. So if appointed to a tournament and an "extra" game comes up we cannot go there. On a saturday if I am appointed to Team A V Team B and Team B pulls out I cannot then ref Team A v Team C who just happen to be arround unless I contact the appointment guy and get sanction. For a tournament it would be that I was appointed to games under the tournament , nothing else.

Certain levels (below youth) clubs self appoint refs. So this would be irrelevent.

That all said, as a general point if you Red card someone in an tournament "environment" advise the organisers of the details and it is over to them.

 

[crossref]

What shirt was the referee wearing ? Tournament shirt, his society shirt ?

I am not entirely serious of course , but it does illustrate some to the complexities here
The referee must repor the RC first to the organisation that appointed him to the game. it sounds like that was team A

(And yes, also tell the tournament organisers)

 

[jdeagro]

The ref's job is to show the red card and ensure the tournament organiser is aware. Any sanction will then be in his/her hands. I expect this type of incident wouldn't be specifically covered in the tournament rules so a common sense decision likely.

I also suspect the ‘type’ of red may influence it too - more likely to hear wails of protest off a red handed out for a moment of brainf@rt dumbass-ery but out and out thuggery would see less fuss.

This is essentially what the outcome ended up being, and I think makes sense. And kind of to Volun-selected's point, after the head ref of the tournament was notified of the situation, he made the decision to let the player continue playing in the tournament, since the red card was the result of their brainfart dumbass-ery and not something actually egregious. I think the head ref made a fair decision in good spirit, considering the circumstances.

 

[crossref]

This is all very odd.

Where did the tournament refs come from? It would be the tournament organisers who decide eligibility to play in it, not the "head ref"

(And very unusual, I would think, to let a player with a RC earlier that day go on to play in a tournament)

It all goes right back to being very clear, when you ref a game, by what authority you are reffing it. What is the status of the game, Exactly who has appointed you ?

 

[BikingBud]

This is all very odd.

Where did the tournament refs come from? It would be the tournament organisers who decide eligibility to play in it, not the "head ref"

(And very unusual, I would think, to let a player with a RC earlier that day go on to play in a tournament)

It all goes right back to being very clear, when you ref a game, by what authority you are reffing it. What is the status of the game, Exactly who has appointed you ?

Would you need to be appointed to a pre-season friendly or training run out? Especially if the referee is from that club.

The forfeit of the tournament game was registered, this just happened to be a game played on the same pitches on the same day.

If you receive a red card, in a training or warm up game are you immediately banned, is there a disciplinary hearing and can you continue playing until the disciplinary hearing?

If you are able to carry on playing then if you play a game in the morning and get red carded then there is nothing to say you cannot play in the afternoon.

The tournament rules do not apply outside the tournament and if the player has not been to disciplinary then carry on until otherwise sanctioned.

 

[BikingBud]

I believe that, technically, all matches count the same - even friendly/social matches. If it was a match and not just a developmental session then I think we’re obligated to report it and the player is done.

I also suspect the ‘type’ of red may influence it too - more likely to hear wails of protest off a red handed out for a moment of brainf@rt dumbass-ery but out and out thuggery would see less fuss.

If it was out and out thuggery, given that I would not expect the unofficial game to have any standing, I would expect the tournament committee to be having a very clear discussion with the team officials of Team B to ensure they have dealt with the individual. Perhaps in a similar way that you would discuss with the coach of a junior age side, suggesting it might be better if the individual sits this one out, for the "overall benefit of the game".

 

[crossref]

Would you need to be appointed to a pre-season friendly or training run out? Especially if the referee is from that club.

.

In those sorts of games the referee has been appointed by the home club

I think for most tournaments, for most clubs , you wouldn't let someone play who had received a RC earlier the same day ?

 

[jdeagro]

In those sorts of games the referee has been appointed by the home club

I think for most tournaments, for most clubs , you wouldn't let someone play who had received a RC earlier the same day ?

I believe there's nothing in the union rules here that say you can't play in a subsequent game before your hearing on the red card. (Though I'm not expert on the local union rules.) I do suppose the

Where did the tournament refs come from? It would be the tournament organisers who decide eligibility to play in it, not the "head ref".

While the referee society is separate from the tournament organizers, the tournament is pretty *casual*. It's a friendly tournament in itself, organized by a local club. The local club probably just deferred to the referee society who was participating to make a ruling on this odd case, since they are just a rugby team themselves, not refs. The head ref (which is a standard here at tournaments, not sure about elsewhere) is who everyone deferred to. Again, because the tournament itself is a friendly, the match of 10s was a friendly and not actually sanctioned as part of the tournament, and because the red card was for something not egregious, the head ref decided it would be in best spirit of the sport / day to let the player continue in the tournament after giving him and the coach an admonishment, which was well received from the player and coach.

 

[crossref]

It all sounds very badly organised

 

[Decorily]

It all sounds very badly organised

That's a bit harsh!

 

[crossref]

That's a bit harsh!

In what way ?

 

[Decorily]

Well we don't really know the finer details of the incident referred to and the tournament may have been a very well run event with people smoothing over bumps as they arose to get the job done to everyones satisfaction.

 

[jdeagro]

It all sounds very badly organised

Idk, my perspective is definitely different than yours. You make it sound like the match organizers are a very official authoritative figure of the event. Been playing the sport for 20 years and officiating for 15 of them here in the states (all different divisions) and the match organizers usually aren't anything much more than an assistant coach for the hosting team or the players themselves. Any authoritative decision regarding laws of the game are always handled by the referee / team of referees who are present at the event.

 

[crossref]

Idk, my perspective is definitely different than yours. You make it sound like the match organizers are a very official authoritative figure of the event. Been playing the sport for 20 years and officiating for 15 of them here in the states (all different divisions) and the match organizers usually aren't anything much more than an assistant coach for the hosting team or the players themselves. Any authoritative decision regarding laws of the game are always handled by the referee / team of referees part who are present at the event.

Idk from the description it sounded like a game took place that may or may not have counted as part of the tournament, no one was clear exactly how the ref was appointed, no one knew what a RC meant, and no one knew who should decide what the RC meant

And the outcome was that a player who received a RC was (disgracefully) allowed to take part in a tournament just a few minutes later

Seems pretty shambolic to me

I'd be interested to know who the RC was reported to and what was the outcome of the hearing . (Fully expectig the answer "no one" and "there wasn't a hearing")

 

[Decorily]

Idk from the description it sounded like a game took place that may or may not have counted as part of the tournament, no one was clear exactly how the ref was appointed, no one knew what a RC meant, and no one knew who should decide what the RC meant

And the outcome was that a player who received a RC was (disgracefully) allowed to take part in a tournament just a few minutes later

Seems pretty shambolic to me

I'd be interested to know who the RC was reported to and what was the outcome of the hearing . (Fully expectig the answer "no one" and "there wasn't a hearing")

If only everything could be as straightforward as you suggest.

 

[crossref]

If only everything could be as straightforward as you suggest.

Are you saying that it was all clear and well organised? I wonder why jdeagro came here to ask about it then?

 

[jdeagro]

Idk from the description it sounded like a game took place that may or may not have counted as part of the tournament, no one was clear exactly how the ref was appointed, no one knew what a RC meant, and no one knew who should decide what the RC meant

Not sure how you've deduced that so far. The game definitely was not part of the tournament as the original description states. It was an unsanctioned friendly that one of the refs of the tournament volunteered to officiate and took place on the empty field at the location of the tournament. The ref was who was scheduled to officiate the original game that was forfeited, so he was available. The ref was appointed by both teams agreeing to partake in a friendly match and asking the ref if they'd officiate.

In normal tournament rules, I believe (I'd have to refresh myself) it's standard in USA Rugby that a red carded player must sit for the remainder of the tournament. This was not a match part of the tournament, which is why there was uncertainty on what should occur here. The referee of the friendly match who gave out the red card reported it to both the tournament organizers and the referee society who was participating that day, and it was decided that the head ref there would make the final decision on the outcome in regards to the tournament itself.

I'd be interested to know who the RC was reported to and what was the outcome of the hearing . (Fully expectig the answer "no one" and "there wasn't a hearing")

I believe typically the red card gets reported to the union of where the incident occurred, and then forwarded to the union of which the player belongs. That union will setup a hearing with the player and administer consequences accordingly.