Player talk to officials

[bcm666]

General view on my twitter feed is that talking/appealing to/questioning officials is getting worse (not necessarily abusive) both at top TV level and lower down. what is your experience? If you agree do you think it is a problem?

 

[Dixie]

It is certainly much more prevalent than when I played. Generally, it's pretty inconsequential and can be managed by the more experienced referee (Vets are a law unto themselves, and you're lucky if you only have 31 refs on the pitch!). However, at youth levels the drip drip is all to common (Sir, can you watch for this? Can you watch for that?). It is a mild form of dissent, but usually so politely effected that the ref only realises the damaging consequence when there's been a mass brawl.

At Levels 11 to 9, my experience is that the constant soccer-style appeal is damaging. When the oppo have demanded a PK for offside and it is granted, it matters not that the ref was going to award it anyway - it looks as though the oppo is effectively reffing the game. Small steps from there to the players taking matters into their own hands.

While the level of chat is currently manageable, I think the future is looking worrying.

 

[OB..]

I find I regularly have to impress on junior referees the need to stop the "advice" firmly and early. Those who try that find it works.

 

[bcm666]

I find I regularly have to impress on junior referees the need to stop the "advice" firmly and early. Those who try that find it works.

Do you think the level now seen on TV each week is an issue? As i said my impression and 99% of my followers is that it is and the slippery slope is insidious as we have sen with tolerance in the scrum and where that has got us?

 

[crossref]

At age group levels, I am more concerned by the touchline behaviour than the players .
I guess that's because I have the tools to deal with the players , but parents and coaches can be very difficult

 

[OB..]

Do you think the level now seen on TV each week is an issue? As i said my impression and 99% of my followers is that it is and the slippery slope is insidious as we have sen with tolerance in the scrum and where that has got us?

I have yet to see players mob the referee to complain about a particular penalty award whereas this almost seems to be de rigueur in soccer. While I agree that there is too much chat, I think it is all part of a change in society, which no longer respects authority figures. Maybe this was originally a reaction against excessive respect in the past, but that past is long gone and we are left with excess disrespect. Obviously it does not help if players see bad behaviour on TV, but I doubt if that is the root cause.

I don't really see a parallel with the scrum problem. IMHO that comes from an unwillingness in the IRB to implement one or two quite simple remedies. If they did, players would fall into line. What I don't know is if there is a lobby from perhaps coaches and managers to retain the status quo. I seem to remember that at one Lensbury Conference when coaches were invited, they made it clear they would not cooperate if they did not get quite a few of the changes they wanted. Do the coaches complain about the current scrum mess? Perhaps they just see it as their job to make the best of it.

 

[Dickie E]

I am seeing it as more prevalent now and there are a couple of reasons:

1. elite refs are miked up so TV audiences are able to hear the constant appealing that happens at that level (the Aussies are probably the worst)

2. refs at all levels now have more of a propensity to enter into dialogue with players (explaining decisions, managing on the run, etc). This is a good thing but invites discussion at that and later events

3. the role of the captain seems to have been eroded. It used to be a badge of honour (and still is at school's level) but is often now just a nuisance ("Fred, you were late to training on Tuesday so you're captain this week"). There is a clear link (IMO) between weak and ineffectual captains and player yap. Don't we all love "George, he's the ref. Belt up and get back 10".

 

[Accylad]

Interesting to see this raised today. I had a very tense and competetive L7 game today where appealing became an issue. Penalising the offenders after the "ask" then the "tell" worked with the team with the strong captain ("for f***s sake shut up - you can see he isn't going to let you shout out"), but the weaker captain failed to instill the necessary discipline in his team and I actually penalised him for talking at me in the end.

I drove home thinking how a really good game was jeopardised by the appealing culture and how there was an subtle attempt to make me look like some sort of martinet for not being prepared to tollerate it - which I ignored and banged in the pens until it stopped.

Interestingly I had a chat with my mate who had reffed weak captains team the previous week. Guess what? He had had the same issues with the captain. My conclusion -young coach and weak captain are not enforcing standards.

Not a weekly problem and if we all were to take a zero tolerance approach it would get driven out - wouldn't it??

 

[Dickie E]

Perhaps it should go in the Urban Myths thread but I'd like a dollar for every time I've heard "but I'm the Captain! I'm allowed to argue/debate your decision"

 

[Phil E]

Brian
You might like to look at this video that The Premier League sent out to all Premier League football players to watch.
Maybe the RFU should consider something similar?

http://vimeo.com/32261530

 

[bcm666]

Brian
You might like to look at this video that The Premier League sent out to all Premier League football players to watch.
Maybe the RFU should consider something similar?

http://vimeo.com/32261530

Thank you for that I am going to tweet it if you don't mind. Maybe it would help but the difference in rugby is that hitherto the sanctions have been levied sufficiently to dissuade players from bad behavior. I don't think it has been because they realise they are copied. the FA bring things like this out to try and prove they are doing something about the disgraceful behavior of players to officials and to obscure the fact that they don't back their officials and support robust action.

 

[Phil E]

Please do pass it on because I think it is a great video.

I agree with your assessment.

 

[SimonSmith]

It depends upon what you mean by "problem".

Is it more prevalent? Absolutely.
Is it a problem? Well, not in my games., I am specific in my pre match to the captains that I will explain, but I won't debate and I won' be told what I have 'missed'. First appeal, penalty. Tends to be the last.

A lot is weak captaincy. I had an outstanding young man as captain today. He listened to me, he worked with me, and took care of most of my problem before they became problems. Trouble free, and a joy. Coaches, too. I notice the teams who have coaches who concentrate on, well, coaching, are usually low-nuisance. The noisy coach who is making every call during the game? 9 times out of 10, there's going to be an issue in the game.

Part, as alluded to upthread, is societal.

Yes, I do believe that the TV coverage of the Elite game exacerbates the issue, but isn't the root cause.

And I'm going to put this out there - weak referees who allow it. If every referee, to make a ridiculous statement, penalized every appeal for just two weeks, people would shut up in a hurry. There are conflict averse referees, much like yourself Brian, who will allow it, or will try to 'manage' out of it. Doesn't work, and simply perpetuates the issue for next week.

 

[Drift]

Perhaps it should go in the Urban Myths thread but I'd like a dollar for every time I've heard "but I'm the Captain! I'm allowed to argue/debate your decision"

I've had that one. To which my reply was "only if I want to listen to you, now go back 10"

 

[Simon Thomas]

You have to balance the referee's management needs (communication is two way), engaging the players' & getting their confidence and establishing referee credibilty & trust.

However appealing has no place in the Game - at Elite or Grassroots and itis in the referees control. Deal with it by making it clear you will not allow it in word and deed.

I always look at the causes of why the players making appeals - is the referee missing offences, making poor decisions, do the players have an incorrect Law interpretation or is he/she playing excellent advantage which the players are missing , etc ?

Once you know why they are appealing, solutions can be applied to cut it out. We don't need it, we don't want it and so need to keep it out of the Game.

 

[Kempy]

I completely agree Simon. If I have a game that has a lot of appeals I tend to think about my actions first. Did I make some questionable decisions, was I unclear or sound unsure of my calls/laws as these things can lead to players trying to take advantage of any perceived weakness.

I do think it is really important that the appeals are stamped out early on even if deep down, you know that they may be a result of your own mistakes. There is plenty time to reflect on your own performance after the game, on the pitch.

I played in a game yesterday that degenerated into farce as the referee who lacked confidence of the laws allowed appeals in ever phase of play and endless backchat. I believe that that this was the cause of eventual handbags as the players had not been pulled up early. If he had words early and then perhaps escalated to YC I reckon the whole game would have been better for everyone, including the ref as it can't have been enjoyable for him.

 

[Dickie E]

Y

However appealing has no place in the Game - at Elite or Grassroots and itis in the referees control. Deal with it by making it clear you will not allow it in word and deed.

Appealing is very different to dissent. Under what law do we ban appealing?

 

[andyscott]

first appeal is usually a warning, next is a PK

First backchat is a YC, much more effective than a 10m march Shuts them up PDQ.

 

[stuart3826]

My skippers brief includes "discipline is your job, if I have to get involved it may involve the use of cards. If you are unsure about a decision, you may ask me and I will explain, but it is never open for debate, and once made it will stand, right or wrong. Please work with me and we can all concentrate on rugby, which is why we all came. Ok?'

I rarely get much chat, and always ATP, and on the very rare occasions that doesn't work, 10 minutes :noyc: always has the desired effect.

 

[Toby Warren]

Appealing is very different to dissent. Under what law do we ban appealing?

That's a good question.

I personally treat it as the thin edge of the wedge - and deal with it so. But sometimes it's an instinctive reaction.
(Think 20,000+ shouting 'forward' at a club match in unison).

To me there is a fine line that needs to be carefully managed to maintain good working relationships / good control.