Player with minor injury not in play, but ref not aware of this

[mark.lucas]

OK, here's the situation.

Green are attacking, but Yellow gain a turnover 1m from their try line. They run it out of their in-goal, but the ball carrier is held at 3m into play from their try line. A maul forms, and then collapses with the ball buried at the bottom. Ref, correctly blows - Scrum 5 to Green. Green take the ball down the blindside and and the ref awards a try.

All through this, the ref is unaware of of a player, who received a knock in the Yellow turnover, who was out of play since the turnover, and is standing behind the dead ball line out of his field of vision.

Many spectators thought that the scrum should be reset once the player was back in the game. The ref however stated that he couldn't change the decision he had made - the try stands.

Thoughts please.

 

[Simon Thomas]

1 Player has left the pitch without permission
2. Why no comment from coach / spectator at scrum time ?

Obviously it was not a forward as the scrum took place - more fool yellow for not saying anything.

Try stands and get better organised yellow.

 

[Davet]

Play does not have to stop for an injury, unless eg a FR player or forward required at a scrum.

If the player is not in the way of play, and not essential to the play then it isn't necessary to wait for him.

You can, when the ball is dead check on him etc., and even call time off if necessary, but it isn't mandatory

 

[Dixie]

Watch any televised game and see play continue despite the presence of medics & physios attending injured players.

If it is dangerous to continue, then stop the game. In this case, stopping the game would achieve nothing at all. The player is not even on the pitch, so there's no issue of the ref's permission being required to treat him. He ought to obtain permission to re-enter, but the ref's not going to disadvantage Green by disallowing a try-scoring opportunity so he can tell off Yellow and then allow them to commit more defenders than before.

I'm guessing this would be a low-level game. If the guy had stayed on the pith, most refs would have delayed the scrum while he was assessed. As he's off the park, no issue.

 

[Dickie E]

Play does not have to stop for an injury, unless eg a FR player or forward required at a scrum.

If the player is not in the way of play, and not essential to the play then it isn't necessary to wait for him.

You can, when the ball is dead check on him etc., and even call time off if necessary, but it isn't mandatory

ditto.

Mark, welcome to the soup & I apologies for the riff raff who didn't acknowledge your entry.

 

[mark.lucas]

All

Many thanks to all for your input and welcome. I've actually been luring for a while as I start running around with a whistle.

As Dixie suspected this was a low level game - in fact the lowest possible - friendly club match at U9!

Now knowing the level - would anyone's game management be different. The option of delaying the scrum can't be used as the ref didn't know of the injury.

Cheers

Mark

 

[Dickie E]

All

- friendly club match at U9!

is there any othr type of U9 game?

 

[Simon Thomas]

All

Many thanks to all for your input and welcome. I've actually been luring for a while as I start running around with a whistle.

As Dixie suspected this was a low level game - in fact the lowest possible - friendly club match at U9!

Now knowing the level - would anyone's game management be different. The option of delaying the scrum can't be used as the ref didn't know of the injury.

Cheers

Mark

Suitably chastised by Dickie E, may I make my tardy welcome to you on the Forum.

U9 (or up to U12) is a separate issue and the Child Safeguarding folks will expect more flexibility in making sure any injured players is attended to quickly, but the onus is on the coaching staff to keep an eye out, and bring it to your attention.

 

[Dixie]

I despair! RFU.com is bouncing all visitors to RugbyFirst! Consequently, I can't check the playing numbers at U.9, but from recollection I think they play something like 9 a side, with 3 forwards and 6 backs?

There are rolling subs, though, so the coach should have been sufficiently on the ball to put up a replacement before (or even during) the scrum. As he didn't, I don't see it as a refereeing issue, but a coaching one. We might also remember that the primary aims of U.9 rugby are learning and enjoyment, well ahead of winning. So no - I don't think anything should have been done differently. It would be unfair on the attacking side - particularly if Yellow had a blind side winger in situ. If they did not, I suspect there would have been rather more clamour from the touchline before the scrum, adn teh ref would liekly have spotted the deficiency.

 

[SimonSmith]

If the ref didn't see it, it didn't happen - you can't undo a series of events.

If the ref DID see it, particularly at that age, then as mentioned above, it wouldn't be unreasonable to manage the situation.

And welcome. You're first person who's been luring. Apart from maybe Chopper, but he goes more for the hook. Now, lurkers on the other hand....

Yes, there is a degree of language (spelling and grammar) pedantry here!

 

[PaulDG]

I despair! RFU.com is bouncing all visitors to RugbyFirst! Consequently, I can't check the playing numbers at U.9, but from recollection I think they play something like 9 a side, with 3 forwards and 6 backs?

There are rolling subs....

And all scrums are uncontested.

So what's the problem?

 

[scrumpox2]

The problem is that at that level some coaches and parents will expect the ref to stop play if there's an injury or player down.
I think the above replies have been spot on, it's the coach's responsibility to bring the ref's attention to players who are down or need replacing, the ref cannot see everything.

 

[Taff]

The problem is that at that level some coaches and parents will expect the ref to stop play if there's an injury or player down.

Bang on. I was a TJ at a very fractious game last Sunday (in fact it was so bad tempered I understand the ref has put in a complaint) :sad: and as Scrumpox mentioned, invariably it was the parents of the "injured" players who kicked up a stink if play wasn't stopped when their little Johnny was lying on the floor. "Ref, you stopped the game for their player, why aren't you stopping it for ours?" was the usual cry.

TBH I felt the constant stop - start, stop - start contributed to the fractious nature of the game. I'm sure it would have been far better if the coaches had just quietly run on and attended to any injuries while play continued.

 

[crossref]

the laws about injury are just the same at U9 - play can continue as long as it's safe.

what IS different though is that you have a small pitch and lot of excited 9 year old all watching the ball, so grown up coaches/first-aiders/worried parents hurrying on to crowded field of play is not a welcome combination, and it's much more likely that you'll want to stop play to avoid collisions.

Also the 9 yr-olds themselvs can become quickly distracted by the injury.

In the example you give this wasn't a problem as the player was off the field.

If I had been refereeing - and I was aware of the injury - I would have let play on until the ball went dead, the scrum, and then stopped and called for a sub to appear.

 

[Phil E]

I would have let play on until the ball went dead, the scrum, and then stopped and called for a sub to appear.

Here it comes........

View attachment 1092

 

[PeterH]

636 !!! how many subs did they bring?

And I am not sure that that is a rolling sub...

 

[andyscott]

Its not a british one either, well i dont think so, I usually recognise ours, they are usually in a dry dock

 

[Trev Cutler]

Maybe we should call on Deeps experience

 

[mark.lucas]

All

Many thanks for your input(s).

As you will have surmised, I was the ref.

The Green coach (my home team) said he was trying to make me aware of the injury by shouting - but along with all the other parents shouting, that's just a lot of noise.

As discussed above, the Yellow coach should just have run onto the pitch, sorted it out and made me aware.

My decision to stand by the facts of what I was aware until after the try weren't gratefully received in the clubhouse, but I was certain I was correct.

One query, was: "You can change your decision!". I replied that you cannot.

Thoughts?

 

[SimonSmith]

Defined in law