Players in motion at penalty

[Mike Whittaker]

In U19 and younger I have never allowed players of the team taking a PK to be in motion before the kick is taken.

Clearly if a group all charge together then the law against cavalry charges applies

If one solitary player comes at pace onto the ball which is then played to him it can hardly be called a cavalry charge?!

Having checked the law book I am now not sure as to the extent to which this interpretation now applies.

Does it have to be several players or just one?
Do they have to be close to the opponents line?

Any thoughts?

 

[Robert Burns]

Good question Mike.

Trying to think how I would apply it is that I would pemalise a group (2 or more) running before the tap, but I probably wouldn't penalise 1, as there is nothing in law to state he cannot run onto a pass at a penalty.

Anyone do it different?

 

[ex-lucy]

at junior level ... definitely only one player running onto the ball ... i.e. others can run away for some kind of distraction is ok... or backs running over to the end of their line to create overlap is ok... but actually onto or close by the ball ... only one

 

[Simon Griffiths]

Yes, I'd allow one - possibly dummy runners as ex-lucy says, but not if they're near to each other - as this is the danger aspect.

As far as allowing no-one at U19, I am not aware of this myself, and would never stop anyone (provided they do so within the laws of the game). However, it is illegal for the receiver to have more than a two meter run-up at a free-pass in U10 rugby and below. Nothing in U19 laws about no run-ups. (The U10 law specifically gives latitude for motion before the tap/pass).

 

[Ricampbell]

The cavalary charge is illegal because the players run before the ball is tapped not because of how many. Most laws are written in the singular, however in general if one player is allowed to do then all of them are. I woudln't penalise for all running unless they all ran before the ball was tapped.

Ross

 

[Mike Whittaker]

The simple question which seems to be getting complicated is, "Do you allow the player(s) to be in motion before the PK, by their team, is taken?"

 

[Simon Griffiths]

No-where in the law book does it state that a player is not permitted to 'charge' before the ball is tapped, I believe that the 'Cavalry Charge' law is very specifically worded (see my emphasis):

Law 10.4
...Attacking players form a line across the field...

It is very specific about it being multiple players - firstly because it is written as plural and secondly because it is impossible for a single player to form a line across the field (actually I think Jason Leonard might have been portly enough to manage it at one stage ).

The only thing under the PK/FK laws that is remotely to do with this is that players must be behind the kicker when it is tapped (in-fact, nothing to do with what we're debating really - but it doesn't mention anything about running up).

Plus, if the laws for U10 rugby specifically allow a two metre run-up then I suspect that all levels are likewise permitted, and if it is mentioned as being a limiting variation at that age group, I would also take it that you are allowed more at other levels (as in U19 laws, 1.5m push - specifically mentioned as a limiting variation, unlimited push in higher rugby).

 

[Deeps]

One needs to think out of the box on this one and not be a pedant to the letter of the law. The law exists for safety reasons, it provides some guidance and consistency for referees to define one specific example of dangerous play. The object as we all know being to prevent an attacking player from battering into the defence having increased to vmax before the tapped ball is passed to him. The key issue is that it is potentially dangerous whether one, two or fourteen players do it.

Defenders have to wait 10 metres away and cannot charge before the tap although arguably there is nothing in the 'Calvary Charge' provisions to prevent the entire defence retiring 15 metres and then all start charging as soon as one of the attackers moves (Didds, would this work as a defensive ploy I wonder?) but this would almost certainly be construed as dangerous play.

The Calvary Charge provisions work anywhere on the field of play although it tends to be used near to a goal line. As a matter of course I will advise attackers that they are not to charge before the ball is tapped as part of preventative refereeing.

 

[Robert Burns]

Is running onto a pass from a penalty tap and running at a stationary defender and more dangerous than the winger receiving a cut in pass at pace and running into a flat line defence?

I think they are one and the same, except in the first one the defender has time a distance to plan his tackle.

 

[Simon Griffiths]

Yes Robert, what is the difference between a charge at a penalty and a full-back taking a kick and getting 20 yards to steam into the first defender? Nothing that I can think of!

If running at a player is dangerous, then let's ban rugby!

 

[Deeps]

If running at a player is dangerous, then let's ban rugby!

I was going to try and cast some pearls but cannot compete with this blinding rationale nor do I have OB's infinite wisdom and patience. Suffice to say that if you think it is dangerous then it is your responsibility to prevent it. I prefer to do this before it happens.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Somebody somewhere must remember that we used to have a 'law' or clarification or guidance which explicitly stated that in junior rugby players of the team taking a penalty could not be in motion when the kick was taken. Clearly it does not exist now as such.

From now on I will let them move unless I deem it unsafe. And I think it is safer if the defenders can start to move up on the attackers at the same time as the attackers start their move.

 

[ex-lucy]

simon ... rugby is dangerous ...

so is mountainering and rock climbing and angling ...

more deaths from angling than any other sport/ pastime ...

 

[Robert Burns]

more deaths from angling than any other sport/ pastime ...

Lol, is that true? From drowning/falling in rivers?

 

[ex-lucy]

Lol, is that true? From drowning/falling in rivers?

yep, apparently one common cause of death while angling is that anglers wear these great waders that come up to their midriffs .. so they go out into the middle of the stream... wading out ... get knocked over by the current ... and the waders fill up ... and they either drown there and then or get carried off ..

heart attacks from sudden effort in pulling in large fish ...

getting drunk and falling into river from banks or boats ..

 

[Jacko]

Frying when casting under electricity wires.

 

[Deeps]

Being a bubblehead by training and persuasion (can't you guess), I was at an appropriate forum where the most common causes of death for divers was being discussed. The most common cause was old age followed a long way back by road accidents.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Being a bubblehead by training and persuasion (can't you guess), I was at an appropriate forum where the most common causes of death for divers was being discussed. The most common cause was old age followed a long way back by road accidents.

Perhaps time to give it a miss then Deeps... ( and no comment on your driving)

 

[Simon Thomas]

Somebody somewhere must remember that we used to have a 'law' or clarification or guidance which explicitly stated that in junior rugby players of the team taking a penalty could not be in motion when the kick was taken. Clearly it does not exist now as such.

From now on I will let them move unless I deem it unsafe. And I think it is safer if the defenders can start to move up on the attackers at the same time as the attackers start their move.

You are right Mike - the cavalry charge is illegal at U19 and below. Anywhere on the pitch. Neither attack nor defence can move until ball kicked.

I will try to find the relevant documentation to support this

 

[Simon Griffiths]

simon ... rugby is dangerous ...

I do hope that (given the rest of the post in question), my "if running is dangerous" line was understood to be sarcastic - because it was. I was using a form of hyperbolic hypothesis to prove a point I was trying to make - namely that if we ban one thing for being dangerous (when it is perfectly acceptable at other points during a match), then we'd have to ban them all, and thus ban rugby.