Push in the back of the ball carrier

[buff]

I was with my u-16's this afternoon. An opposition ball carrier broke outside my winger. The b/c slowed down as my 15 came across to cover. My 12 caught him from behind and pushed him in the back, so that the b/c went to ground. It was a solid push, but he did not push him into anyone, and there was no question of a shoulder charge. Is this not covered by 7.1, or am I missing something?

thanks

 

[didds]

Law 7.1 - World Rugby Laws
( www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=7.1&language=EN‎ )
Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball.

didds

 

[Taff]

An opponent is allowed to push a player holding the ball, but the only doubt I have in mind is whether a hard push in the back could be considered "dangerous". I'm thinking there's a good chance of whiplash.

I appreciate it will happen quick (possibly too quick to do anything about it) but if there was a stationary BC and an opponent approaching fast from behind, personally I reckon I would blow up on safety grounds, and restart with a scrum to the BCs side.

 

[RobLev]

Law 7.1 - World Rugby Laws
( www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=7.1&language=EN‎ )
Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball.

didds

I'll see your 7.1 and raise you 10.4(g):

[LAWS]Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player. [/LAWS]

Can a player push the ball-carrier over without knocking him down? It seems to me that there's a fine line to be drawn there, and I'm not sure that a shoulder is necessarily involved - but don't know.

A push which results in the BC going down is of course not the same thing as a push which knocks him down.

 

[OB..]

Push = charge? Not normally IMHO.

 

[ChrisR]

An opponent is allowed to push a player holding the ball, but the only doubt I have in mind is whether a hard push in the back could be considered "dangerous". I'm thinking there's a good chance of whiplash.

I appreciate it will happen quick (possibly too quick to do anything about it) but if there was a stationary BC and an opponent approaching fast from behind, personally I reckon I would blow up on safety grounds, and restart with a scrum to the BCs side.

Taff, if he had tackled him from behind with a shoulder in the small of the back and arms wrapping the thighs would you have blown that up?

 

[Pinky]

I think there is a difference between pushing and charging. For me it is a bit about relative speeds on contact so it would be a push if it was like forming a maul, but there were no other attacking players in, also a push if running side by side, the defender steered the bc into touch. However if running at each other head on or close to it I would expect to see an attempt to grab the BC, otherwise fir me that is a charge. What's the tipping point? Truthfully not sure. But would probably allow the OP situation to be PO, esp if the defender could only lunge and push the BC in the back.

 

[Browner]

An opponent is allowed to push a player holding the ball, but the only doubt I have in mind is whether a hard push in the back could be considered "dangerous". I'm thinking there's a good chance of whiplash.

I appreciate it will happen quick (possibly too quick to do anything about it) but if there was a stationary BC and an opponent approaching fast from behind, personally I reckon I would blow up on safety grounds, and restart with a scrum to the BCs side.

Taff, equal "whiplash" can occur if it were a 'tackle' when a player isn't braced/expecting it.

Ultimately its a debate over the line being crossed for a push (legal) becomes a charge (illegal) & that interpretation divide remains the opinion of individual referees, as it always does for a fend .v. a strike.

FWIW I'm not sure I can hypothesise over the deciding line per age grade etc.....

I guess the best answer is " whatever the referee decides is his "Fact" is then Law in that match , & consistent application in that match thereafter.

 

[buff]

I should have mentioned that the ref penalised my player. I thought he was wrong, but I didn't make anything of it.

 

[didds]

Hmmm..

C&O to me that a push uses the hands.

A charge uses a shoulder.

clearly other's mileage varies.

it doesn't seem to have been a problem for the 40 years I've been involved with rugby union until this week.

didds

 

[Browner]

Hmmm..

C&O to me that a push uses the hands.

A charge uses a shoulder.

clearly other's mileage varies.

it doesn't seem to have been a problem for the 40 years I've been involved with rugby union until this week.

didds

Maybe the subtely of the " knock " element of Law isn't widely known.

Similar to those who don't know that obstruction of a kicker is covered under charging the kicker.

As a guiding ideology , foul play 10.1(a) permits shoulder to shoulder pushing when ball chasing, I can only assume that its thus for safety reasons. ???, just a thought.

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Charging or pushing. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular][/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]When a player and an opponent are running for the ball, either player must not charge or push the other except shoulder-to-shoulder.[/FONT][/LAWS]

 

[ChrisR]

Maybe the subtely of the " knock " element of Law isn't widely known.

Similar to those who don't know that obstruction of a kicker is covered under charging the kicker.

As a guiding ideology , foul play 10.1(a) permits shoulder to shoulder pushing when ball chasing, I can only assume that its thus for safety reasons. ???, just a thought.

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Charging or pushing. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular][/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]When a player and an opponent are running for the ball, either player must not charge or push the other except shoulder-to-shoulder.[/FONT][/LAWS]

Except your post has nothing to do with the OP as in the OP one of the players is carrying the ball.

The OP sounds like a knee jerk reaction to something that "didn't look right".

 

[Taff]

Taff, if he had tackled him from behind with a shoulder in the small of the back and arms wrapping the thighs would you have blown that up?

Honestly? Probably yes, but on safety grounds not of an offence. Ie it would be a scrum restart not a PK restart.

I'd like to think I would have prevented it happening, but until it actually happens in a real game, I won't know if my reactions would be fast enough, but when you think someone is seriously hurt, it's bloody surprising how quick you can move.

I have blown up for legal tackles where the BC was tackled and landed awkwardly and surprisingly I don't remember anyone complaining; in fact far from it, both sides usually appreciate it - as long as you explain why you've done it.

Taff, equal "whiplash" can occur if it were a 'tackle' when a player isn't braced/expecting it.

That's my point Browner. If it's a head on tackle, the BC knows what's coming and can brace for it. It's different for a tackle from behind.

... The OP sounds like a knee jerk reaction to something that "didn't look right".

Perhaps the Ref thought it was dangerous.

 

[ChrisR]

I guess my point is the laws of the game prohibit the clearly dangerous actions, ie. tip tackle, but I wouldn't stop play for a legal action because it "looked" dangerous.

I would stop play for a clear injury such as two players colliding heads and unconscious with a restart scrum.

So, in the OP if the pushed player collapsed in a writhing heap I could stop play. Otherwise, no, not because it "looked dangerous".

 

[Taff]

It is very very rare it will happen.

Eg I don't think I've had one all season, but as they say ... "prevention is better than cure".

 

[Browner]

Except your post has nothing to do with the OP as in the OP one of the players is carrying the ball.

Yes but thats why I referred to it as a "guiding ideology".... the idea that pushing is permitted IF its part of an equitable chase contest, whereas a hard shove of an opponent "to ground" is currently unlawful

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

Just out of interest. Have you said to the player "If you were close enough to push him why didn't you tackle the f*****"

 

[buff]

Just out of interest. Have you said to the player "If you were close enough to push him why didn't you tackle the f*****"

That is exactly what I asked, minus the f-bomb.
At the time I assumed the ref penalised my player because it did not look right.

 

[chrismtl]

I always have coaches complain about it when it happens. I find that it is usually with HS coaches and I tend to warn players (in a coaching manner for safety concerns) when they do it as most of the time I assume that they really had no clue what they were doing. Almost all of the kids here have very little rugby knowledge apart from the 2 month seasons they play from grade 7 to grade 11 (if they play every year), and even in that time, most don't know the laws, have much knowledge of the sport or even have watched a rugby game.

 

[crossref]

Except your post has nothing to do with the OP as in the OP one of the players is carrying the ball.

Yes but thats why I referred to it as a "guiding ideology".... the idea that pushing is permitted IF its part of an equitable chase contest, whereas a hard shove of an opponent "to ground" is currently unlawful

Shoving is the same as pushing. It's legal