Pushin' and shovin'

[Greg Collins]

White vs Blue

White awarded a scrum penalty in their own 22 which they take quickly. Ball passes through hands and an overlap exists in White's favour as they enter Blues half.

White ball carrier 12 has supporting player 14 on his shoulder, very close, who is in turn being chased by Blue 12 who is loosing ground on this pair.

Blue 12 shoves White 14, who is NOT the ball carrier, in the back with both hands, pushing him headlong into White 12 who is knocked over as a result and who spills the ball. This happens as the White players have passed the Blue 10m line

What would you give as referee if

a) White only had the Blue 15 to beat
b) White had two Blue players in positions to defend the attack between them and the goal line
c) White had more than two Blue players in positions to defend to beat between them and the goal line
d) would you expect the outcome(s) to be different in showbiz rugby?

 

[Phil E]

Too far out for a PT with even one player to beat IMO.

White penalty at the point of the infringement and a YC to Blue 12.

 

[Deeps]

Blue 12 shoves White 14, who is NOT the ball carrier, in the back with both hands, pushing him headlong into White 12 who is knocked over as a result and who spills the ball. This happens as the White players have passed the Blue 10m line

What would you give as referee if...

Greg, you do not mention the level of the game. In all cases I would have awarded a PK with possibly a YC according to what I saw.

If you are hinting at a PT then, if it were U19 7s, I would feel more inclined, however if it was a 15s level 10 game then there is still a possibility that the White 12 will trip over his own feet or a blade of grass. So, from an offence occurring at the 10 metre line, I think a PT is pushing it.

Mind you, I have seen a PT awarded in international 7s for an offence committed the wrong side of the halfway line.

 

[Simon Thomas]

wot Phil says

a) same
b) same
c) same
d) no diff for showbiz rugby

 

[Toby Warren]

Was this the brumbies game? Anyone else see the kick through to the ingoal i think the player picks it up and ref gives 22 without him grounding it.

 

[Dixie]

Gif it was a 15s level 10 game then there is still a possibility that the White 12 will trip over his own feet or a blade of grass. So, from an offence occurring at the 10 metre line, I think a PT is pushing it.

2 on 1 overlap, 40m out, clear from the description that if the pass is made and caught, no-one will catch the winger. Davet (and possibly also Phil E and ST) feels that in L.10, the probability is that a try will NOT be scored in this situation. At what level of game do people believe that the chances of converting a 2:1 overlap tip beyond 50%?

 

[Greg Collins]

Was this the brumbies game?

Yep, based on what I saw in that game though not an exact description as it put me into 'community level what if...." mode and on the tv you could not really see where all the defenders were. But, being showbiz, the shove was deemed immaterial I guess.

 

[Greg Collins]

Greg, you do not mention the level of the game. In all cases I would have awarded a PK with possibly a YC according to what I saw.

If you are hinting at a PT then, if it were U19 7s, I would feel more inclined, however if it was a 15s level 10 game then there is still a possibility that the White 12 will trip over his own feet or a blade of grass. So, from an offence occurring at the 10 metre line, I think a PT is pushing it.

Mind you, I have seen a PT awarded in international 7s for an offence committed the wrong side of the halfway line.

My hypothetical was based on an incident in todays Brumbies vs Warrahta game. Looked to my like the break would score if the ball carrier had not been taken down by his own player who had been pushed over, but TV didn't show the defence (mainly because most of em were left for dead in the oppo half of the park.)

PT wasn't in my mind really. More a possible score than a probalbe one given they way the teams were fluffing chances. I was just gobsmacked that not a word was said to the shover.....

 

[tim White]

At what level of game do people believe that the chances of converting a 2:1 overlap tip beyond 50%?

Blue 12 obviously thought it was going to be a try.

 

[didds]

however if it was a 15s level 10 game then there is still a possibility that the White 12 will trip over his own feet or a blade of grass. So, from an offence occurring at the 10 metre line, I think a PT is pushing it.

C'mon Deeps - if you use that sort of reasoning than almost no PTs could ever be awarded as there is ALWAYS a possibility that the player will trip, drop it, suffer a cardiac arrest before making it to the line (especailly in fat boy 7s!) or be run down by a stampede of mad elephants escaping from the circus.

Surely you have to ignore the _possibles_ and concentrate on the _probables_. And I think it fair to say that a 2 v 1, 50m out with a winger in the overlap (ie someone with pace) and no other defenders in a likely position to tackle must be a worthy consideration of a PT.




didds

 

[didds]

2 on 1 overlap, 40m out, clear from the description that if the pass is made and caught, no-one will catch the winger. Davet (and possibly also Phil E and ST) feels that in L.10, the probability is that a try will NOT be scored in this situation. At what level of game do people believe that the chances of converting a 2:1 overlap tip beyond 50%?

L10 equates to our 3rds. Aside from maybe the days when we only have 13 tight five forwards and two centres available, I would still back a winger to score in the circumstances described.

didds

 

[Davet]

Dixie - I am impressed with your understanding of my position some 9 hours bfore I post it - you are of course correct.

I don't think a PT is on at pretty much any level where there is a one on one or harder, 40 metres out.

I think even 10m out, if there is a defender (not an offender) who is in a decent position then a PT would be a big big call.

A card would be a much smaller call....

 

[Agustin]

Would anyone consider a RC for this? Under 10.2(a)...

I didn't see the incident but if I'm imagining it correctly the player blatantly and deliberately cheated.

I don't see (or give) a lot of straight reds for non-violent offences, though.

 

[Davet]

The YC was introduced to address the issue of "professional fouls", which this sounds like.

 

[Deeps]

C'mon Deeps - if you use that sort of reasoning than almost no PTs could ever be awarded as there is ALWAYS a possibility that the player will trip, drop it, suffer a cardiac arrest before making it to the line (especailly in fat boy 7s!) or be run down by a stampede of mad elephants escaping from the circus.

Surely you have to ignore the _possibles_ and concentrate on the _probables_. And I think it fair to say that a 2 v 1, 50m out with a winger in the overlap (ie someone with pace) and no other defenders in a likely position to tackle must be a worthy consideration of a PT.

I didn't see the game that Greg referred too and will agree generally with your premise. One needs to see it as it happens and decide on the spot as you would do for real. Then again I am quite happy awarding PTs requiring perhaps a lower probability of success than most.