Qualifications for U14 matches

[Buzz]

Hi,

I have been an avid reader of this forum for many months, and have enjoyed the discussions - some informative, some interesting for other reasons and I feel now is the time to make my first post.

I want to pose a question to those who are involved in junior rugby in England in particular. In Wales, the referee has to be minimum level 1 which allows them to referee upto U16 after attending a course held by the WRU and sat a written exam. What is the minimum qualification in England?

The reason for this question is my son plays U14 for the local club and have had a fixture today against a team across the border. My son's coach agreed to play the lesser laws (no lifting in the lineout being the only difference), but from the first kick the referee made some very strange decisions, and his game management was a little suspect. The coach asked him at a break if he was qualified as the team and parents were getting frustrated with his performance and his lack of explanation when questioned by the captain, to which hos reply was he wasn't qualified but merely a social referee .

The coach explained that he was unhappy due to insurance etc. especially as the scrums were not managed with regards to the 1.5 m push, to which the ref replied he would ref the game as he saw fit, and if the coach wasn't happy he would stop the game. Unfortunately the ref got a little aggressive towards the coaching team when they explained why they weren't happy (concerneed about safety etc.) and my son's team were taken off the pitch

Having checked the RFU website, it is not clear as to what qualification this person should have had to referee a match under IRB U19 laws, and I was looking for information from those in the know how :chin:

Apologies for the length of post. Thanks

 

[PaulDG]

I want to pose a question to those who are involved in junior rugby in England in particular. In Wales, the referee has to be minimum level 1 which allows them to referee upto U16 after attending a course held by the WRU and sat a written exam. What is the minimum qualification in England?

None at all. Really. Absolutely none.

The coach explained that he was unhappy due to insurance etc. especially as the scrums were not managed with regards to the 1.5 m push, to which the ref replied he would ref the game as he saw fit, and if the coach wasn't happy he would stop the game. Unfortunately the ref got a little aggressive towards the coaching team when they explained why they weren't happy (concerneed about safety etc.) and my son's team were taken off the pitch

I think that was the right decision in the circumstances. Frankly, I wish a few more English coaches would do the same but far too many don't want to "spoil the day out for the boys" even though their safety is at risk.

 

[Buzz]

Is it a not a little worrying that these games are played under IRB U19 law which tbh are not far from senior laws, and the man in the middle could be anyone?

Surely everyone who refs these matches should have at least a qualification that says they have had a certain level of teaching and training?

 

[PaulDG]

Is it a not a little worrying that these games are played under IRB U19 law which tbh are not far from senior laws, and the man in the middle could be anyone?

Well in theory, not anyone. In theory, it should be someone "suitable". It's just that we don't have any requirement for any formal qualification.

Surely everyone who refs these matches should have at least a qualification that says they have had a certain level of teaching and training?

It might well be a good idea but it's not currently a requirement in England - I believe the only place it actually is a formal requirement is Wales.

 

[Phil E]

U17 game today.
Lots of terrace refs in the stand giving advice.
"He has to let him up ref"
"How can he be holding on when he doesn't have his hands on the ball" - perpetrator had his knees drawn up to his chest and the ball trapped between his knees and body.
"But he's got the ball" - after tackled and held players got to their feet to carry on running withut releasing.
.............and so on and so on.

But the case in point. Red forward given yellow card. Both scrums down to 7 men, no number 8, for 10 minutes playing time.

Afterwards blue coach says can he ask me a question?

"Why did we have to lose one of our players in the scrum when their player was sent off"
"Because that's the law, it's a safety issue."
"But we have two refs with us (indicates the stands) and they say that only applies at U12"
"No it applies to all U19 games, I suggest they read the U19 section of the Law book, it's all in there!"

Funny thing was when I went in the bar, what should I find pinned up on the front of the bar? The Hants guide to U19 rugby, complete with the section about equal numbers in the scrum.
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

 

[PaulDG]

"Why did we have to lose one of our players in the scrum when their player was sent off"
"Because that's the law, it's a safety issue."
"But we have two refs with us (indicates the stands) and they say that only applies at U12"
"No it applies to all U19 games, I suggest they read the U19 section of the Law book, it's all in there!"

Not forgetting the latest ruling from the IRB that says that only applies when forwards are missing, of course..

 

[Taff]

Just a friendly word of warning Buzz, but in your case you may want to clarify the insurance issue in case you inadvertently end up reffing the next game "over the border".

Like you I've got my Level 1 license, but the covering letter (you probably had the same one) made it clear I was only insured for games "in Wales". In my case it's an academic point as I live at least 90mins from the English border (and realistically I'm not likely to get an invite to ref a game in Engalnd) but my guess is that in your case you live close and could find yourself reffing a local game who happen to be in England and you may not be covered. Its certainly worth checking - I'd e-mail David Davies at the WRU IIWY. :wink:

 

[triage]

It might well be a good idea but it's not currently a requirement in England - I believe the only place it actually is a formal requirement is Wales.

I personally think that all countries should take this up. It helps to eliminate potential legal issues that may arise if (god forbid) a serious injury should occur. It may also eliminate the serious injury from happening in the first place.

If we could get more numbers involved I would even advocate the under 14's and up game require level two licences and not just over 16 games.....but unfortunately refereeing numbers are low.

just my tuppence worth

 

[stuart3826]

As a parent first, referee second and level 2 coach third, I would not allow my U16 son to play in a game where the ref not at least completed a L1CCRU, and at his level, I'd prefer a properly qualified ref.

 

[GeorgeR]

I toured last year to SW Wales and we took part in a tournament at Llanelli with an U14 side. The RFU had issued clarification re the differences in ELV's as in Wales the Full U19 laws apply at that age (i.e. lifting, offside lines at scrum etc) rather than the watered down version that we play here. It clearly stated the steps we had to take coaching and refereeing in order to be covered.

The RFU insurance implies woldwide cover below

The RFU link is http://www.rfu.com/ManagingRugby/In.../OfficialsCoaches/2009-2010-CoverSummary.ashx

 

[Taff]

As a parent first, referee second and level 2 coach third, I would not allow my U16 son to play in a game where the ref not at least completed a L1CCRU, and at his level, I'd prefer a properly qualified ref.

Fair point, but in reality how many parents would even know how to check whether the ref is qualified, let alone have the bottle to walk up to him and ask to see his license? :chin:

 

[Buzz]

As a parent first, referee second and level 2 coach third, I would not allow my U16 son to play in a game where the ref not at least completed a L1CCRU, and at his level, I'd prefer a properly qualified ref.

I totally agree, at our home club every age group from U8 to U16 has a level 1 referee assigned to them with a number of other level 1's trained withjin the club should any of them be unavailable. We also have 3 level 2 referees attached to the club, myself being one, who referee U14, U15 and U16 matches. If these age groups are not playing at home, we will referee the younger age groups if required. It is very rare for a level 1 do ref the matches at U14 - U16 level. We never allow any unqualified referees or coaches to be involved with any of the teams.

I think it's about time everyone else follows the example set in Wales - only then will the children be safe.

My son has a number of fixtures arranged against teams in England through the season, and have in the past, yet this is the only occasion they have not had a qualified ref.

 

[Dixie]

Buzz, you've asked a very interesting question, and people have dived straight into the substantive issue without offering you a welcome. It's great to have lurking refs come up for air, because so often the new guys trying to get things straight in their head ask the sort of questions that make the rest of us think hard about what we do. So a very warm welcome to you; I hope we'll see lots of threads coming from your direction.

Firstly, PaulDG is right that there is no requirement for a formal qualification. However, clubs with a strong-ish mini-midi section (i.e. U12 and younger) will usually get at least one person trained up per age group. At my club's U.15 age group, we have two Society refs and a club ref from the U.9 intake. Refs who have taken an entry-level qualification but who have not joined the local Society may describe themselves as "club refs" or "social refs" - you can't infer they had no training, though that may possible be the case. I'd suggest that if the club you were playing had a smallish mini and junior section, than its more likely than would be the case for larger clubs.

As for insurance if playing over the border, the RFU insures anyone who refs a game in England at an RFU member club (so don't referee a pub game, but feel comfortable reffing anywhere that has the use of their own posts). As there are no qualification requirements to meet, you will not be disbarred by not having an RFU qualification. Quite the opposite in fact; your WRU qualification will demonstrate a degree of expertise not necessarily to be found in England.

I think both the coach and the ref acted correctly in your case. The ref needs to stick to his own lights and not be swayed mid-game by a section of the crowd or one or other of the coaching teams. The coach ultimately has to look after his player's interests, and if the game is considered unsafe he must withdraw his players from the field. In such circumstances, I'd hope that both sides managed to have an adult conversation after the game over a pint, but whether or not this happens, a polite letter to the junior chairman of the home team expressing concerns about the referee's knowledge and application of the safety-related aspects of the U.19 laws is probably warranted.

And finally: Stuart 3826 - I've no idea what L1CCRU is: I certainly don't have it, though I have sat both the current and previous RFU entry-level refereeing awards - National Foundation Certificate (NFC) and ELRA. Would you let me ref your boys? The Sopciety does occasionally appoint me to U.16 County games.

Sorry about the length of this response.:biggrin:

 

[stuart3826]

I toured last year to SW Wales and we took part in a tournament at Llanelli with an U14 side. The RFU had issued clarification re the differences in ELV's as in Wales the Full U19 laws apply at that age (i.e. lifting, offside lines at scrum etc) rather than the watered down version that we play here. It clearly stated the steps we had to take coaching and refereeing in order to be covered.

The RFU insurance implies woldwide cover below

The RFU link is http://www.rfu.com/ManagingRugby/In.../OfficialsCoaches/2009-2010-CoverSummary.ashx

Likewise, our U15's toured SW Wales last summer - we had to play the RFU ELV's, and consequently I refereed one of the matches. What fun!:clap:

 

[Dixie]

I'd be interested to hear from the Welsh contributors whether an English Society referee is qualified to do an U.19 game in Wales? While with a little admin he can be insured to do so by the RFU, I've always imagined that the WRU's insistence on a recognised qualification would prevent an English ref getting involved.

 

[dave_clark]

I think it's about time everyone else follows the example set in Wales - only then will the children be safe.

you don't read the daily express by any chance do you?

:wink:

on another note, a game i saw recently (no dates, no teams, no chance of linking back to the referee), if it had been my team i would like to think i would have seriously considered removing them from the field. an appointed society referee, at a decent level (i.e. not a level 15 probationer), but not safe. the longest sequence of scrum resets was about 6 i think before we got the ball in and out successfully and, under the new dangerous tackle guidelines there should have been 6 or 7 red cards. at least. one of these dangerous tackles resulted in a player going to hospital.

not suggesting for a second that licensing all referees is a bad idea, but to think that by doing so will eradicate poor and unsafe officiating is, IMHO, wishful thinking.

 

[GeorgeR]

In my case at the tournament I helped out at in Llanelli, it was a requirement for each side to provide a "qualified referee". We took that in our case to mean at least ELRA 1 and 2 which I have and for which I had my card with me.

The insurance document I linked to earlier, states worldwide cover for officials, so presumably for the likes of Wales, Scotland and Ireland I would be covered to officiate when with a club traveling on tour?

 

[Simon Thomas]

I'd be interested to hear from the Welsh contributors whether an English Society referee is qualified to do an U.19 game in Wales? While with a little admin he can be insured to do so by the RFU, I've always imagined that the WRU's insistence on a recognised qualification would prevent an English ref getting involved.

We have an English level 6 who is reffing high standard 1st XV school matches in Wales this season mid-week. He did level 1 in Wales but it wasn't mandatory for him. He has RFU 'permission to referee overseas' approval so is already covered by insurance.

Another Hants members (level 9) works for RNLI as an inspector and is working round Welsh coast for next few months, so he has 'permission to referee overseas' and has been welcomed with open arms by various Welsh Societies.

 

[Steve Bate]

Guys,

I did my National Foundation a couple of seasons ago and ref weekly at my Age group level (currently U12) I never progressed to the local society as was told that the level of time commitment was significant. I cannot afford to spend any additional time over my current club and work commitments, do I stay at NFC, do I need to go ELRA? In view of some of the questions earlier, would any(every)one be happy with me reffing Junior games without being a society member?

Steve

 

[Greg Collins]

Steve Bate; if yours is like mine you can be a society member and still only ref games at your club. Similarly as a club ref you'd be very welcome at our monthly training meetings without ever joining. Worth going not least because you get to meet people like St Wayne of Barnes; professional wendyball referees and that bloke off the telly who you saw do that GP game the other week.

The only commitment my society asks of me is to ref as and when I can, at a frequency and in geographical catchment I define, and to do my best to give up one evening a month to go to a training meeting (so other refs can take the piss out of my stupid questions:biggrin They in turn try to formally assess/watch me at least once a season (didn't happen last season) to make sure I'm safe and give me a few pointers to work on.

I did NFC, then went back and did ELRA only because I like to know what current thinking on 'stuff' is. Doing ELRA didn't make you a more competant, or safer ref. A bit of assessment and lots and lots of critical self reflection and hundreds of hours on the park is what does that I think. I'm not there yet - clearly I'm still a work in (very slow) progress.