Qualifications for U14 matches

Phil E


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I never progressed to the local society as was told that the level of time commitment was significant.

Wot Greg said.

My Society has members who might only do one game a month, or 4 games a week like me. All are welcome. Contact your local society, explain your position and I am positive they will welcome you in.
 

FlipFlop


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The insurance document I linked to earlier, states worldwide cover for officials, so presumably for the likes of Wales, Scotland and Ireland I would be covered to officiate when with a club traveling on tour?

Be careful.

The insurance documents only cover you if you ahve applied for (and been granted) permission to referee abroad.

From personal expereince, it isn't hard to get it granted. And it can be extended to cover USA & Canada as well.

Luckily we don't have this issue over here - it is mandatory for all citizens to have civil liability insurance. It covers us on the field, and worldwide.
 

triage


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I'd be interested to hear from the Welsh contributors whether an English Society referee is qualified to do an U.19 game in Wales? While with a little admin he can be insured to do so by the RFU, I've always imagined that the WRU's insistence on a recognised qualification would prevent an English ref getting involved.

dixie I don't know the answer for sure but I would imagine it a requirement to be qualified by the RFU to a similar level as our requirements. e.g. an under 19 game in wales would require a level two licenec which would allow you in wales to do youth and senior district rugby (that is 2nd teams and non fully WRU affiliated club first teams or division 6 as it is now known in wales :)).

I will try remember to ask this tomorrow in our society meeting
 

Dixie


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Guys,

I did my National Foundation a couple of seasons ago and ref weekly at my Age group level (currently U12) I never progressed to the local society as was told that the level of time commitment was significant. I cannot afford to spend any additional time over my current club and work commitments, do I stay at NFC, do I need to go ELRA? In view of some of the questions earlier, would any(every)one be happy with me reffing Junior games without being a society member?

Steve
My club is ineffably grateful to the many club refs with yellowing NFC certificates on their walls who make sure that Sunday youth games have reasonable officials. Societies tend not to appoint below U.17, so youth teams are at the mercy of whomever stands up to ref them. As long as it's safe, better a ref with an old qualification than one with none (or even, possibly, a new one?).

Interestingly, there is no worthwhile measure of a Society ref's ongoing training. The better-run Societies will keep detailed records or who attended which meeting, and what modules of the Continuing Ref Dev Award were covered at that event; for most, I suspect, it would be impossible to say what each ref had or had not covered.
 

Greg Collins


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if our society meeting counts towards CRDA you have to sign an attendance list, don't know if this ends up on your database record, but otherwise I don't think we bother.
 

stuart3826


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Guys,

I did my National Foundation a couple of seasons ago and ref weekly at my Age group level (currently U12) I never progressed to the local society as was told that the level of time commitment was significant. I cannot afford to spend any additional time over my current club and work commitments, do I stay at NFC, do I need to go ELRA? In view of some of the questions earlier, would any(every)one be happy with me reffing Junior games without being a society member?

Steve
As club ref co-ordinator at my club, I would be delighted for you to ref our junior matches.

If your club wants Seal of Approval, you may have to up to ELRA - depends on who else you have on your club lists
 

Steve Bate


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As club ref co-ordinator at my club, I would be delighted for you to ref our junior matches.

If your club wants Seal of Approval, you may have to up to ELRA - depends on who else you have on your club lists

Stuart, we already have the RFU Seal of Approval and interestingly at the beginning of last season we ran a session so we have at least 2 x ELRA 1&2 refs in each age group from U8-U16, I was told I didn't need to go on it as I had NFC, wish I'd done it now tho' :sad:

Steve
 

Greg Collins


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Steve

I've done both. From a reffing perspective you've missed very little. From a child protection/duty of care perspective you missed quite a bit but you will have covered all that and more via your club I'm sure.

Once you've got your bit of paper it is real life reffing experience and asking questions about that experience (of yourself, of others in here, at your club, in your local society) that helps you get better - supposing you get the right answers!

Every time I'm in a changing room with a better ref (prob 1 game in 3) I ask "have you got a minute, such-and-such happened, this is what I did, these were the consequences, could/should I have managed that differently."
 

chesref


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Got this information from RFU website (link below)
http://www.rfu.com/TakingPart/Referee/~/media/6D70621B35E2481283072CDD6BE06AF4.ashx

Seems ELRA stages 1&2 qualified can referee games upto level 5.

Son currently still playing in continuum level, and there seems that some of those refereeing these games who have completed course still need experience of matches to deal with safety issues at scrum, ruck etc..

When I am asked to ref games at youth level I will inform the coaches that I cannot give what I do not see.
Also when standing on touchline watching games and I hear parents or coaches complaining about the referee I politely remind them that at this level many refs are still on a very steep learning cuvre and have to start somewhere, and then let them know that ELRA courses are regularly available and that their attendance would be welcomed so they can take the whistle and ref their first games with the same expectations they are demanding.
 

Tarwmawr


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Was asked to referee an Under 16 match v Welsh Valleys u16 last season.
It was a shock to the visiting side to hear the "local" ref able to commuicate in their local tongue and dialect. There was only one host player able to follow such "conversations" - yes No1 son playing at Loose-head prop. No problem with the variations. Close game won by the visitors!
 

Dixie


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Got this information from RFU website (link below)
http://www.rfu.com/TakingPart/Referee/~/media/6D70621B35E2481283072CDD6BE06AF4.ashx

Seems ELRA stages 1&2 qualified can referee games up to level 5.
The chart is a bit out of date, in that the Society Referee Award has been replaced by the Continuous Referee Development Award - which is not so much an award as a process (being continuous, it can never end, apparently). Certainly the training sessions at Federation and Group level will take a ref further in his development, but I'm not aware of any certificate being available beyond ELRA . Perhaps the Society training officers can comment? We have at least one.
 

Simon Thomas


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Just to concentrate on the refs only (there is a whole parallel pathway system for assessors and ref coaches).

The starting point is ELRA (or NFC as it was). Once passed you should ref mini/midi or U13 and a lot of coaching match scenarios. Some ex-players may be able to start straight off as an adult match referee, but it isn't recommended. Run as TJ a few times, ref coaching sessions at local club (adult and junior), and get confidence. Some stay as Club Refs, and the new ClubRefereeCoordinator in each club and ClubRefereeDevelopmentOfficer(s) in each county is a major RFU initiative to support Club refs, offer training and raise the standards. Longer term I see certification beking brought in (sorry Dave !) mainly as an insurance requirement.

About 10-15% of ELRA attendees join the local county Society. In the Society we have had post ELRA refs who were just not ready to referee (confidence, awareness, and safety) so we need to get them ready. That may mean spending a season or part therof as a club ref.

If in a Society you should be able to decide how often you ref, geographical spread, etc as Greg and Phil describe. One match a month or a dozen - all are equally welcome. Your progress as a Society referee, with assessments / advice / mentor / coach and speed of grade promotion (to your natural potential, and often a couple of steps beyond !) will depend on your effort and commitment.

One commitment we do ask for is the Monthly Training meeting, which in many English Societies now follows the RFU CRDA modules as one key agenda item in the meeting. Also Referees are encouraged to do it for themselves, with a Personal Development Plan (PDP) if they are ambitious and want to get up the grades.
Once you get to Society Development Squad level there will be another monthly meeting, with higher grade refs running sessions on key parts of the Laws/Game, detailed discussion of match scenarios and usually a dedicated coach. We keep a register, and we enter all course elements for CRDA and other courses on the RugbyFirst records.

For a few after that comes Federation Squad (appointments at 6 and 7), squad meetings, special training, assessments/coaches, and for even fewer Group (all level 5 matches are Group Appointments now), where it is even more intense, there are weekly debriefs and goal setting. The Referee Pathway document is well out of date as Dixie says, and I complained like hell about it at the time, as it sets false expectations and is very misleading. Even in the "old days" a post NFC or ELRA 1 & 2 referee would not be appointed beyond level 11 adult or U16 in their first season, unless a real 'high flyer' and has proved themselves. A level match would take 3 seasons for even the quickest rising referee - the majority of Society Referees will only get to level 9 over a nunmber of seasons, which is the grade of a highly competent and good referee.

For about 50 or so referees across the whole country, after Group comes the National Panel of Referees, with a full time team coaching, supporting, assessing, etc. I will leave that to KML1 to explain further if necessary.
 

scrumpox2


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I want to pose a question to those who are involved in junior rugby in England in particular. In Wales, the referee has to be minimum level 1 which allows them to referee upto U16 after attending a course held by the WRU and sat a written exam. What is the minimum qualification in England?

The reason for this question is my son plays U14 for the local club and have had a fixture today against a team across the border.
IME, and I'm coaching at U14 this season, you might get a qualified ref and you might not. If we are hosting an U14 team at Alton there will be qualified ref (ELRA or old NFC - both of which require a laws exam); when we go away sometimes there is but sometimes the home team's coach picks up the whistle.

The qualification is no guarantee of competence, there is no assurance that the guy has had any assessment by the Society.

It's interesting that the home team feel an expectation and responsibility for supplying the ref and it's quite rare that, in the absence of a qualified/competent ref, the home coach will even ask the visiting team if they have a qualified ref amongst them. All part of the home advantage eh?
 

Bunniksider


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Current Referee grade:
Level 6
I did my ELRA towards the end of last season but I have been struggling to complete stage 3 due to my (U8) coaching commitments on a Sunday and not yet having the confidence to volunteer for an adult game on a Saturday.

Luckily our U14s have a late KO this Sunday so I am reffing that after mini training. As this is likely to be a one-off arrangement I was thinking that another route to stage 3 and experience might be schools rugby.

Any thoughts on this? We have plenty of schools who play rugby locally, should I contact them directly or is there a route via the society (Manchester & District) I should take?

Cheers
Mark
 

Simon Thomas


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To complete Stage 3 these should be Society appointments with mentor / adviser to do report(s).

In our Society mid-week assessors are a rare thing, but it may be different in Manchester.

You should contact the Society to do stage 3.
 

Phil E


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You should contact the Society to do stage 3.

I thought you could ONLY complete stage 3 through a Society.......at least that's what I was told.
 

Simon Thomas


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Correct Phil - but I was being sensitive and helpful to a newly qualified ELRA graduate ! I know it is unusual for me, so will revert back to normal. :D

Stage 3 can only be done through a Society, as the Society Chairman or Chairman of Gradings and RFU Ref Dev Manager have to sign off the stage 3 matches' log book and match assessment form.
 

dave_clark


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i never got any of that stuff, i went straight into appointments (or reappointments. maybe our RM knew that i'd get myself crocked after only 3 matches :)
 

Bunniksider


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Current Referee grade:
Level 6
Perhaps I am getting confused but I thought that I had to do a handful of self assessed games before being assessed by the Society.

I was trying to source these games myself but do you suggest that I contact the society (I have the details) to help me arrange suitable fixtures?
 

backrow


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Perhaps I am getting confused but I thought that I had to do a handful of self assessed games before being assessed by the Society.

I was trying to source these games myself but do you suggest that I contact the society (I have the details) to help me arrange suitable fixtures?

You need to complete 5 games 1 assesed before being allowed to join Manchester Society, these can be arranged by you at your club or society can help, but can't appoint you, also the Halbro colts leagues are crying out for refs on a Sunday, check their website for contact details:chin:

Bunniksider also see my private message to you.:)
 
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