Questions on the new Scrum laws

[Martin Doughty]

Questions on scrum put ins with the new laws...

If the referee is no longer giving any signal for the put in, then what happens in the following situations:

Scenario 1: C-B-S and the scrum half immediately (meaning in the next few milli-seconds) puts the ball in {back in my hooking days we used to signal this by me or the SH just saying 'heads'}.
The scrum might not even be stable and it could even be starting to move, but it just has not yet had the time for the movement or instability to show.
Under last seasons laws we would have: a) waited until it was stable; b) penalised for an early push; c) penalised the SH for not waiting.
Question: What do we do now?

Scenarion 2: C-B-S but the scrum takes a few seconds to become stable.
Last season I would have given it this few seconds of settling time and then given the SH the OK.
What am I supposed to do now?
If I tell the SH that it is now stable and to continue then I am signalling to him.
If I do not give any signal then at what point do I penalise the SH for delaying the put it?


...and as a follow on to scenario 1, are immediate put-ins back on the menu?

 

[Dickie E]

Martin, if you find the answers to your queries, please share with us all

 

[Shelflife]

Stand at the tunnel, do your C B S, when you are happy that they are S&S move out of the way.

 

[ChuckieB]

Stand at the tunnel, do your C B S, when you are happy that they are S&S move out of the way.

and if you need to cover the other side?

 

[didds]

...and as a follow on to scenario 1, are immediate put-ins back on the menu?

I don't see why not.

didds

 

[crossref]

Stand at the tunnel, do your C B S, when you are happy that they are S&S move out of the way.

that is giving a signal ...

 

[VM75]

that is giving a signal ...

or... it's giving them access

 

[Martin Doughty]

I'd thought of standing at the tunnel and waiting for S&S, and I see this as being my only option. Occasionally I might manage the C-B-S before the ball gets into the SH's hands, but that won't be that often.

The move I do see happening (coaches, please look away) is on a scrum within push-over distance of the try line. The SH puts the ball in within milli-seconds of the heads meeting, and all 8 forwards are already in a full force, impact led, drive. I cannot penalise an early push ("but Sir, the ball was already in before we moved") and I cannot penalise a no-strike because all the front row have at least one foot up as they move. A scrum like this is far from being S&S as the defending team fly backwards.
I also don't see how the defenders can respond to this. If they think it is going to happen and they drive, and no-put in happens, then I ping them for an early push.

 

[didds]

I think the answer is "don't concede a 5m scrum"

How often did this occur before the 2013 ref instruction was brought in?

Didds

 

[ChrisR]

The move I do see happening (coaches, please look away) is on a scrum within push-over distance of the try line. The SH puts the ball in within milli-seconds of the heads meeting, and all 8 forwards are already in a full force, impact led, drive. I cannot penalise an early push ("but Sir, the ball was already in before we moved") and I cannot penalise a no-strike because all the front row have at least one foot up as they move. A scrum like this is far from being S&S as the defending team fly backwards.
I also don't see how the defenders can respond to this. If they think it is going to happen and they drive, and no-put in happens, then I ping them for an early push.

I agree. This was the case before CBS. If you think that the SH is delaying the feed to get an 'early shove' PK just don't award it.

 

[crossref]

or... it's giving them access

it's controlling when the ball goes in -- which is exactly what WR don't want

- - - Updated - - -

I'd thought of standing at the tunnel and waiting for S&S, and I see this as being my only option. Occasionally I might manage the C-B-S before the ball gets into the SH's hands, but that won't be that often.

The move I do see happening (coaches, please look away) is on a scrum within push-over distance of the try line. The SH puts the ball in within milli-seconds of the heads meeting, and all 8 forwards are already in a full force, impact led, drive. I cannot penalise an early push ("but Sir, the ball was already in before we moved") and I cannot penalise a no-strike because all the front row have at least one foot up as they move. A scrum like this is far from being S&S as the defending team fly backwards.
I also don't see how the defenders can respond to this. If they think it is going to happen and they drive, and no-put in happens, then I ping them for an early push.

in other words we're back to the 'hit' I agree

 

[VM75]

it's controlling when the ball goes in -- which is exactly what WR don't want

i see it more as a tip for managing rather than controlling

 

[crossref]

i see it more as a tip for managing rather than controlling

It's certainly a good question to ask at Society meeting

 

[didds]

i see it more as a tip for managing rather than controlling

just checking... if you were reffing us, and we explained our cadence system (see

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread...o-signal-from-the-referee&p=333759#post333759 - post #13. I omitted to say not only does the ball come in one the called cadence number, but that is when the other 7 push(not before).

would you not permit us that ? As you standing in the way would prevent us using it in effect as the cadence starts to be called on the "set"



didds

 

[ChrisR]

. . . . . and if the cadence runs to 4 would you FK for delay? I hope not.

 

[didds]

As ecxplained earlier, the cadence to four takes less than 2 seconds; there are not huge pauses between the numbers. But enough to distinguish between each part.

In the very few times I have used it - with packs that have had issues with timing, normally its not needed - it has not been a problem for the ref's that have "seen" it.



didds

 

[VM75]

just checking... if you were reffing us, and we explained our cadence system (see

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread...o-signal-from-the-referee&p=333759#post333759 - post #13. I omitted to say not only does the ball come in one the called cadence number, but that is when the other 7 push(not before).

would you not permit us that ? As you standing in the way would prevent us using it in effect as the cadence starts to be called on the "set"

didds

IIWRY & I wasn't experiencing any such issues, then i'd have no need to take a 'managing it ' position , as always players get an opportunity to self manage

ok?

 

[Paule23]

What was the issue with telling players when they can put it in? This seems to be a 'cure' for which they was no problem.

 

[crossref]

What was the issue with telling players when they can put it in? This seems to be a 'cure' for which they was no problem.

my theory is that they wanted to remove the need to touch the players (but then why they didn't go back to verbal commands I don't know)

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I am right in assuming even though the scrum half can stand a little bit to the side, he still has to put the ball in straight so that at least part of the ball has to touch the imaginary centre line of the scrum so that law hasn't changed.
I wonder ids we will ever see not straight given in the top flight?