Quick Throws and Sin Bin Returns

[crossref]

I don't think the law allows the referee to NOT give the player permission to return once his penalty has been served and the ball has gone dead.

it's not really dead though, is it, not dead dead, if it's in a players hands he has every right to take a QT.

there are conflicting rights, that's the point.

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

it's not really dead though, is it, not dead dead, if it's in a players hands he has every right to take a QT.

there are conflicting rights, that's the point.

I know it's getting rather pedantic and I apologise, but it's either dead or it isn't. The player who wishes to take the QT can only handle it once it is dead otherwise it will have been him that took it into touch. Just the same as it he wanted to take a QT immediately after it touched another player. It doesn't matter if it was 1 microsecond or 10 seconds. A factor existed which prevented the next passage of play. Just because we all want to see flowing rugby doesn't mean we can ignore the facts.

 

[crossref]

I know it's getting rather pedantic and I apologise, but it's either dead or it isn't..

it isn't.

indeed if you have ARs there are even different signals
- flag in the air, other arm by side - in touch but QT is possible, ie not dead
- flag in the air, other hand outstretched - QT not possible, ie it is dead.

 

[OB..]

I know it's getting rather pedantic and I apologise, but it's either dead or it isn't.

That doesn't answer the point. The law does not say that the binned player MUST be allowed to come on the next time the ball is dead.

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

it isn't.

indeed if you have ARs there are even different signals
- flag in the air, other arm by side - in touch but QT is possible, ie not dead
- flag in the air, other hand outstretched - QT not possible, ie it is dead.

If, indeed, the ball is not dead then that answers the question. The player is not entitled to come back on while a QT is available.

 

[Davet]

I don't think the law allows the referee to NOT give the player permission to return once his penalty has been served and the ball has gone dead.

A player cannot come onto the pitch without the refs permission.

If something relies on permission then, explicit standing permission excepted (such as i hope we all give to physios), whoever has the authority to give permission also has the authority to withhold it. To suggest that giving permission is mandatory makes a mockery of the whole concept.

Also, note: The referee is the SOLE judge of fact and Law.

 

[crossref]

Jonathan Kaplan would prevent the QT to let the sin-binned player return to the pitch

http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2841524.htm

 

[DrSTU]

That JK fella is a wise man indeed:biggrin:

A very good answer to a very good question. Thanks Bryan

Jonathan Kaplan would prevent the QT to let the sin-binned player return to the pitch

http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2841524.htm

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

Well I'll be a monkeys uncle. Good for him.

 

[Bryan]

Well the cat is out of the bag, but there's an Irishman that would disagee. This is from the recent Will Skinner Decision. I have copied the relevant text of the report below:

The first witness called was Mr Alain Roland, the Referee from the game in question. He briefly went through the Report which he had completed after the match and which was before the hearing. He was questioned at some length by Mr Ashton Jones and suggestions were made to him that firstly, because the temporary suspension of Nick Easter had expired that he was obliged to let him back on the pitch immediately and secondly that even if the Toulouse player had caught the ball which the Player had interfered with that he, the Referee, was not allowed to let him take a quick throw in the circumstances. Mr Roland responded in very positive terms to the effect that he was not obliged by any law to immediately allow the Player back on to the pitch once the 10 minute temporary suspension had expired. He further went on to say that in respect of a quick throw equally there was not specific law dealing with that subject and that both of these issues were entirely within his discretion as the match referee if and when this should have happen. Mr Ashton Jones persisted with the suggestion but Mr Roland would not accept that he was correct. Mr Roland said that he was clearly satisfied that the Toulouse player would have caught the ball which had gone into touch had it not been interfered with by the Player and that he could have taken a quick throw in to re-start the game. He was clear that he would not have stopped the play to bring back the Player necessarily at that time.

 

[crossref]

excellent, Bryan, great discussion and great pay-off! well steered.

how interesting to get two different opinions.

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

but there's an Irishman that would disagee.

Two Irishmen, surely. The judicial officer was Irish and it states "He said that he was satisfied that the actions of the Player did in fact deprive Toulouse of the possibility of a quick throw in and that it was foul play."

 

[OB..]

Naturally I prefer the NH view to the SH one!

(I have never come across the word "timeously" before. Collins and OED say it is Scots, and equivalent to "timely".)

 

[DrSTU]

I think I live in the wrong hemisphere as I always seem to side with the South

Naturally I prefer the NH view to the SH one!

(I have never come across the word "timeously" before. Collins and OED say it is Scots, and equivalent to "timely".)

 

[Dixie]

(I have never come across the word "timeously" before. Collins and OED say it is Scots, and equivalent to "timely".)

To me, Timeously is better than timely. "The timeous submission of the red card report" seems no better than the timely submission, but perhaps it's the way the latter gets used. When vetting advice to clients, many is the time I've struck out "Failed to submit the return timely" and replaced it with timeous or on time. It just seems more flexible.

 

[Dixie]

I just got this message when trying to edit timeous to timeously:

The administrator has specified that you can only edit messages for 2 minutes after you have posted. This limit has expired, so you must contact the administrator to make alterations on your message.

Perhaps this explains Chopper's recent messages.

 

[Bryan]

Two Irishmen, surely.

i think you missed the point of my emphasis here; it had nothing to do with how many, but that one specific one in particular takes a different view; While replies from Judicial Officers are appreciated, my point was that an IRB RWC-FINAL REFEREE disagrees with the management approach taken by the most capped referee of all time.

This has nothing to do with that; it's all about application of management. In my view neither is wrong here, it just depends what side of the "game management" fence you sit on.

Unless someone drafts a question to the designated members, the debate will roll on, and a good one so far until you started talking about "timeous":

To me, Timeously is better than timely

fftopic:

Oh, and just to clear things up; I have zero caps.

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

i think you missed the point of my emphasis here.

Sorry about that Bryan. I didn't miss your point really. It was just my clumsy way of highlighting that the Judicial Officer appeared to agree with him.

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

i think you missed the point of my emphasis here;

....and just to prove that I don't missunderstand your points here is a link for you
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Propeller-C...=sr_1_7?s=shoes&ie=UTF8&qid=1327960237&sr=1-7

 

[L'irlandais]

...This is from the recent Will Skinner Decision. I have copied the relevant text of the report below:

Hello,
With respect to this judgement the beeb had this to say :

The home side were upset by the actions of the Quins team manager, Graeme Bowerbank, and the flanker Will Skinner, both of whom intervened on the touchline to stop Toulouse taking quick lineouts. Skinner was red-carded in the closing moments by the referee Alain Rolland but Novès described it as "asshole behaviour" that reflected poorly on English rugby. Source : BBC