Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
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Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
I've already started on Law 19. Would you like to see it?
I've already started on Law 19. Would you like to see it?
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Dixie
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Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
I have started off by removing the ambiguity in the use of the word "line-out"
In current Law, it sometimes refers only to the two lines of players along the line-of-touch and sometimes refers to all the participating players
In this draft, "line-out" refers only to the whole thing; i.e., the two lines of players, the thrower, his opponent, and the receivers.
I have tried not to change the intent of any Law.
My changes are in blue text
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/98915197/LAW 19 REVISED-first draft.pdf
I have started off by removing the ambiguity in the use of the word "line-out"
In current Law, it sometimes refers only to the two lines of players along the line-of-touch and sometimes refers to all the participating players
In this draft, "line-out" refers only to the whole thing; i.e., the two lines of players, the thrower, his opponent, and the receivers.
I have tried not to change the intent of any Law.
My changes are in blue text
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/98915197/LAW 19 REVISED-first draft.pdf
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Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
Ian - good effort. Having the three clearly defined groups and the terms used consistently is a big improvement.
19.8 (i) I see you have left untouched the contentious point about the receiver moving into the lineout. I would start the exception "Once the ball has left the thrower's hands ..."
The change of terminology means 19.12 (c) can no longer be used to allow a receiver to change places with a contestant, so I would add another Exception in 19.8 (i): "Before the ball is thrown in, a receiver may step into the lineout provided a contestant replaces him."
19.9 (b) I think "leaves the lineout " has to stand. I agree "line of touch" is much more precise, but it would mean, for example, that as soon as a contestant turned to form a maul the ball has left the line of touch and the lineout is over.
Ian - good effort. Having the three clearly defined groups and the terms used consistently is a big improvement.
19.8 (i) I see you have left untouched the contentious point about the receiver moving into the lineout. I would start the exception "Once the ball has left the thrower's hands ..."
The change of terminology means 19.12 (c) can no longer be used to allow a receiver to change places with a contestant, so I would add another Exception in 19.8 (i): "Before the ball is thrown in, a receiver may step into the lineout provided a contestant replaces him."
19.9 (b) I think "leaves the lineout " has to stand. I agree "line of touch" is much more precise, but it would mean, for example, that as soon as a contestant turned to form a maul the ball has left the line of touch and the lineout is over.
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Dave Sherwin
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Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
I like all of OBs additions. The only slight tweak I would make to the above would be to add to the end of the second Exceiption to 19.8(i): ...contestant replaces him as the receiver" in order to clarify that the two metre rule will apply to the contestant who steps out of the line. I don't think OBs current suggestion fails to cover this, but I do think the additional words might just remove any further room for debate (plus, being a lawyer, I like more words).
Which, actually, brings me to another point. Does anyone know if the IRB retains legal counsel to draft the law amendments? If so, they really need to consider another firm!
I like all of OBs additions. The only slight tweak I would make to the above would be to add to the end of the second Exceiption to 19.8(i): ...contestant replaces him as the receiver" in order to clarify that the two metre rule will apply to the contestant who steps out of the line. I don't think OBs current suggestion fails to cover this, but I do think the additional words might just remove any further room for debate (plus, being a lawyer, I like more words).
Which, actually, brings me to another point. Does anyone know if the IRB retains legal counsel to draft the law amendments? If so, they really need to consider another firm!
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Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
(The 1871 Laws/Rules were drafted by three lawyers.)
Several people involved are lawyers, but it is deliberate that the laws are NOT drafted to parliamentary draftsman standards. That would prevent them from being understood by ordinary people such as referees. However I agree that sort of mentality should be used to test the laws. A difficult balance (but i have no objection to adding "as the receiver").
(The 1871 Laws/Rules were drafted by three lawyers.)
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Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
I wanted to start by dealing only with the "line-out" part of Law 19, not the "touch" part, and to rewrite it so that it made the existing Law clearer, removing ambiguity caused by the use of the same words or phrases for different things. This was a relatively simple task.
The next stage is to clarify the intent, and that will be a whole lot harder. When you make a change to clairify the intent, you have to be careful not to change the actual intent of a clause. It requires a re-reading of the whole Law comparing the change to other parts of the Law so that we don't end up with unintended consequences.
To that end, I ask that anyone interested in making suggested changes please stick to the "Line-out" part of Law 19 for the time being. I'll leave it for a couple of days then come back to look at suggestions.
The last part of 19.9 (b) about the ruck/maul formation deals with this, but another way of dealing with it might be to make the ruck/maul part an exception, so...
[LAWS](b) Lineout ends. The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves the line of touch.
This includes the following:
When the ball is thrown, knocked or kicked away from the line of touch, the lineout ends.
When the ball or a player carrying the ball moves into the area between the 5-metre line
and the touchline, the lineout ends.
When a contestant hands the ball to a player who is peeling off, the lineout ends.
When the ball is thrown beyond the 15-metre line, or when a player takes or puts it beyond
that line, the lineout ends.
When the ball becomes unplayable in a lineout, the lineout ends. Play restarts with a scrum.
Exception
If the ball leaves the line-of-touch and a ruck or maul develops immediately, the lineout does not end until all the feet of all the players in the ruck or maul move beyond the line of touch.
[/LAWS]
I wanted to start by dealing only with the "line-out" part of Law 19, not the "touch" part, and to rewrite it so that it made the existing Law clearer, removing ambiguity caused by the use of the same words or phrases for different things. This was a relatively simple task.
The next stage is to clarify the intent, and that will be a whole lot harder. When you make a change to clairify the intent, you have to be careful not to change the actual intent of a clause. It requires a re-reading of the whole Law comparing the change to other parts of the Law so that we don't end up with unintended consequences.
To that end, I ask that anyone interested in making suggested changes please stick to the "Line-out" part of Law 19 for the time being. I'll leave it for a couple of days then come back to look at suggestions.
The last part of 19.9 (b) about the ruck/maul formation deals with this, but another way of dealing with it might be to make the ruck/maul part an exception, so...
[LAWS](b) Lineout ends. The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves the line of touch.
This includes the following:
When the ball is thrown, knocked or kicked away from the line of touch, the lineout ends.
When the ball or a player carrying the ball moves into the area between the 5-metre line
and the touchline, the lineout ends.
When a contestant hands the ball to a player who is peeling off, the lineout ends.
When the ball is thrown beyond the 15-metre line, or when a player takes or puts it beyond
that line, the lineout ends.
When the ball becomes unplayable in a lineout, the lineout ends. Play restarts with a scrum.
Exception
If the ball leaves the line-of-touch and a ruck or maul develops immediately, the lineout does not end until all the feet of all the players in the ruck or maul move beyond the line of touch.
[/LAWS]
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Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
I have moved Law 19 - Touch discussion to a separate thread
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?15180-Clarifying-Law-19-Touch
I have moved Law 19 - Touch discussion to a separate thread
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?15180-Clarifying-Law-19-Touch
didds
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Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
I sympathise with the attempt at clarification, but lets be honest, this requirement is in other areas of lineout law, and its is purely observed in the breach. Lots occurs before the ball leaves the thrower's hands that shouldn't as standard practise. Though I accept fully it may at least mean the swap will only occur roughty-at-the-same-time rather than significantly before.
didds
I sympathise with the attempt at clarification, but lets be honest, this requirement is in other areas of lineout law, and its is purely observed in the breach. Lots occurs before the ball leaves the thrower's hands that shouldn't as standard practise. Though I accept fully it may at least mean the swap will only occur roughty-at-the-same-time rather than significantly before.
didds
Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
The line of touch is a fine line.
If the lineout ends when a player carrying the ball leaves the line of touch, then any player cathing the ball and coming back down on his side of LoT means the LO is over. So backs can advance as soon as its caught.
The line of touch is a fine line.
If the lineout ends when a player carrying the ball leaves the line of touch, then any player cathing the ball and coming back down on his side of LoT means the LO is over. So backs can advance as soon as its caught.
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Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
True that, but its no different what he have now
[LAWS](b) Lineout ends. The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves the lineout.[/LAWS]
So, when does he leave the line-out?
1. when he leave the line-of touch?
2. when he moves out of the line?
3. when he moves more than ½ a metre from the line of touch?
True that, but its no different what he have now
[LAWS](b) Lineout ends. The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves the lineout.[/LAWS]
So, when does he leave the line-out?
1. when he leave the line-of touch?
2. when he moves out of the line?
3. when he moves more than ½ a metre from the line of touch?
Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
When he leaves the line sufficiently for me to adjudge it's over - the line is an amorphous concept and we can take a view, the LoT is much more sharply defined; and your definition means that when the ball is caught, unless the player lands on or stays precisely on LoT then the lineout is over.
Just seems like a rod for the refs back.
When he leaves the line sufficiently for me to adjudge it's over - the line is an amorphous concept and we can take a view, the LoT is much more sharply defined; and your definition means that when the ball is caught, unless the player lands on or stays precisely on LoT then the lineout is over.
Just seems like a rod for the refs back.
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Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
What about "leaves the vicinity of the line-of-touch"?
Or, we could define a "contestant zone", a rectangular box a metre wide and 10m long between the 5m and 15m lines
Personally, I don't think either of these are really necessary.
The Law requires that the ball be thrown along the LoT, but we allow a little latitude with that. I see no reason why we cannot do the same here. The referee judges when the ball leaves the line-out now, I see no reason why the same cannot apply if we call it the line-of-touch.
What about "leaves the vicinity of the line-of-touch"?
Or, we could define a "contestant zone", a rectangular box a metre wide and 10m long between the 5m and 15m lines
Personally, I don't think either of these are really necessary.
The Law requires that the ball be thrown along the LoT, but we allow a little latitude with that. I see no reason why we cannot do the same here. The referee judges when the ball leaves the line-out now, I see no reason why the same cannot apply if we call it the line-of-touch.
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Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
2. Yes.
3. covered by 2.
I agree the line of touch is theoretically more precise - too much so. In general I regard a throw as straight if it lands in the original metre gap between the lines. In other words it is frequently up to half a metre away from the line of touch by then.
Leaving the lineout is a judgement call, but not one that I think causes any significant problems. I see no need for the change.
1. No.
2. Yes.
3. covered by 2.
I agree the line of touch is theoretically more precise - too much so. In general I regard a throw as straight if it lands in the original metre gap between the lines. In other words it is frequently up to half a metre away from the line of touch by then.
Leaving the lineout is a judgement call, but not one that I think causes any significant problems. I see no need for the change.
Ricardowensleydale
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Re: Clarifying Law 19 - Lineout
Why is referees discretion never codified into the laws.?
(b) Lineout ends. The lineout ends when the referee judges that the ball or a player carrying the ball has left the lineout.
Why is referees discretion never codified into the laws.?
(b) Lineout ends. The lineout ends when the referee judges that the ball or a player carrying the ball has left the lineout.