[Line out] Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

[OB..]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

practical guidance and would fit in with my natural preference of, moving towards the ball is always material. Do you call advantage or blow up straight away, thus closing off the option of the QTI if they are foolish enough to take it?

Call advantage if chaser fails to stop.

[This is where I am at odds with blowing the whistle just for a ball going into touch. In my view it should only be blown to stop play once available options are exhausted, and that includes qti's]

You do realise the law does not actually give you the option?[LAWS]6.A.8 (e) [FONT=fs_blakeregular]The referee must blow the whistle when the ball has gone out of play, or when it has become unplayable, or when a penalty is awarded.[/FONT][/LAWS]Players are expected to know that the whistle merely confirms the ball is in touch, and does not preclude a QTI. It is useful for those occasions when it is not clear if the ball went into touch or not.

 

[ChuckieB]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

Call advantage if chaser fails to stop.

You do realise the law does not actually give you the option?[LAWS]6.A.8 (e) [FONT=fs_blakeregular]The referee must blow the whistle when the ball has gone out of play, or when it has become unplayable, or when a penalty is awarded.[/FONT][/LAWS]Players are expected to know that the whistle merely confirms the ball is in touch, and does not preclude a QTI. It is useful for those occasions when it is not clear if the ball went into touch or not.

I had this confirmed yesterday as I had missed it when applying a filter .

Perhaps useful to know but, if the ball is effectively live until ref calls otherwise, why have the requirement? You have a touch judge to fulfil the role of signalling the ball in touch.

The premise in all sports is pretty much, "play to the whistle". This is the single exception, that I can think of anyway, where a whistle is used and yet play does not get halted. A player is expected to know a lot, but we know they don't really.

I am just throwing it in there, drop it the requirement and we avoid an issue and we have less blowing of the whistle and more puff available for other things like hauling ourselves around the pitch.

Has the QTI been in the laws forever and a day?

 

[crossref]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

This is the single exception, that I can think of anyway, where a whistle is used and yet play does not get halted. A player is expected to know a lot, but we know they don't really.

on the contrary, it's exactly the same situation as for for a PK, FK, mark and for 22m drop out : whistle goes, but one team remains free to play the ball immediately. It's what we on rugby-refs have taken to calling a zombie-ball : neither completely dead, nor completely alive.

 

[ChuckieB]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

on the contrary, it's exactly the same situation as for for a PK, FK, mark and for 22m drop out : whistle goes, but one team remains free to play the ball immediately. It's what we on rugby-refs have taken to calling a zombie-ball : neither completely dead, nor completely alive.

I had wondered what you were meaning by a zombie ball, but was afraid to ask.

For PK or FK or a mark the ref has to blow to indicate there has been an infringement or he has made a decision. In these cases, technically play must stop. Either for the indication of the mark for the infringement or ensure a payer gets protection on calling a successful mark. If taken quickly from the wrong place a FK or PK will always be pulled back.

A dropout is not so dissimilar. In essence he might have to call a halt as he may need make an award of possession, offer a choice or confirm it is indeed a drop out.

No more than a thought really.

Any help so as not to suggest to a player I have actually called a halt to the game and he can stop. A bit like traffic signs in the UK, downturned triangles give warnings, "you must", upturned triangles being just advisory. Can't achieve the same thing with just a single pitch whistle!

 

[ChuckieB]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

Call advantage if chaser fails to stop.

You do realise the law does not actually give you the option?[LAWS]6.A.8 (e) [FONT=fs_blakeregular]The referee must blow the whistle when the ball has gone out of play, or when it has become unplayable, or when a penalty is awarded.[/FONT][/LAWS]Players are expected to know that the whistle merely confirms the ball is in touch, and does not preclude a QTI. It is useful for those occasions when it is not clear if the ball went into touch or not.

.........I have just been watching the Chiefs vs Sunwolves and the referee was certainly not blowing when the ball went into touch. Only blown when he then had to call stop play for other reasons.

Nor did he blow when the Sunwolves missed a couple of kicks at goal and the ball went dead.


So something I shall be keeping my eye on.

 

[Pegleg]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

...A bit like traffic signs in the UK, downturned triangles give warnings, "you must", upturned triangles being just advisory. Can't achieve the same thing with just a single pitch whistle!

The only downturned triangle (OFFICIAL) road sign in the UK is "GIVE WAY". Stop signs are not triangles at all. both are forms of Hazard warning signs. Only the Stop sign is a "MUST" sign you dont have to stop at a downturned triangle but you must give way. All Hazzard signs are warning signs.

 

[ChuckieB]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

The only downturned triangle (OFFICIAL) road sign in the UK is "GIVE WAY". Stop signs are not triangles at all. both are forms of Hazard warning signs. Only the Stop sign is a "MUST" sign you dont have to stop at a downturned triangle but you must give way. All Hazzard signs are warning signs.

I was only talking triangles (red bordered to be precise).

As the exception for triangles: - downturned - "You must" (more often than not, it's only a Give Way, but it could include additional sign giving stop instruction and distance info).

More common Upturned - "Be prepared", i.e. warnings containing information.

To complete a trio on red bordered signs: Circles generally mean "You Must Not".

Perhaps they teach it differently these days? The highway code these days is likely a different beast to my 1983 recollection of it?

 

[Pegleg]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

The nature of the different types of signs have not changed. Sorry, but an upturned triangle (only ever the give way) is not an order (must do). Order signs are circles; White on Red for "must not" and Blue for "Must Do". If you have a give eway sign combined with as stop instruction the two would be contradictory.

All triangles are red bordered (white centre) many have additional information on a rectangle below the triangle.

Best keep your analogies simple.


reference pages 106 -108 Highway Code.

 

[ChuckieB]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

The nature of the different types of signs have not changed. Sorry, but an upturned triangle (only ever the give way) is not an order (must do). Order signs are circles; White on Red for "must not" and Blue for "Must Do". If you have a give eway sign combined with as stop instruction the two would be contradictory.

All triangles are red bordered (white centre) many have additional information on a rectangle below the triangle.

Best keep your analogies simple.


reference pages 106 -108 Highway Code.

Additional sign will be either stop or give way plus distance info under a blank downturned triangle. I wasn't clear.

Less than 2 years before I will look at it again formally. 2*15 year olds with expectations!

 

[ChuckieB]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

.........I have just been watching the Chiefs vs Sunwolves and the referee was certainly not blowing when the ball went into touch. Only blown when he then had to call stop play for other reasons.

Nor did he blow when the Sunwolves missed a couple of kicks at goal and the ball went dead.


So something I shall be keeping my eye on.

seems to be a theme carried into the SK Vs Rebels.

Also noticed the ref happily allowing a qti with a ball handed to the player by the ball boy and not the ball that went into touch.

 

[The Fat]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

seems to be a theme carried into the SK Vs Rebels.

Also noticed the ref happily allowing a qti with a ball handed to the player by the ball boy and not the ball that went into touch.

Well that's a cock-up by the ref

 

[Pegleg]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

Additional sign will be either stop or give way plus distance info under a blank downturned triangle. I wasn't clear.

Less than 2 years before I will look at it again formally. 2*15 year olds with expectations!

Can I suggest you leave it to the professionally trained. Under a downward pointing triangle there will, possibly, be an indication of the distance to the give way marking. If there is a legal requirement to stop then the sign will be a stop sign which is not a triangle:

 

[Pegleg]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

We are taking this off topic so I'll leave it with a suggetio nthat you read a copy of the highway code now as you need to know your signs now and not in two years time.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

I agree with ChuckieB to a degree that many elite referees seem to leave touch indication to the AR and do not whistle to indicate the ball has been kicked into in touch. It seems to me they only whistle touch when players play-on after the ball has gone into touch, e.g.,

- a ball carrier touching the touchline and carrying on running
- a player trying to take a QTi when it is not or no longer legal to do so (wrong ball, touched ball etc)
- a player trying to take a QTi from the wrong place (ahead of the LoT)
- a player trying to take a QTi when it not his team's throw in.

It used to be that ARs would put their flag up to indicate touch but would not indicate whose throw-in it was until the QTi option expired. I quite liked that idea, but I'm not sure they are still doing it. I also like the idea of referees only whistling touch when play has to stop and a line-out must take place or options must be given.

 

[didds]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

Well that's a cock-up by the ref

... or a pre-agreed otherwise non official variation which in a year or two's time will have become "the norm" and after a decade will be written into the laws (or rather the same ball requirement quietly dropped).

didds