Receiver joining lineout before throw

[Dickie E]

I'm aware we've discussed this before but what was the consensus of the Receiver (aka scrum half) joining the lineout before the throw? Does a team mate already in the lineout need to drop out?

If so, what is the sanction for failing to do so? Is it a FK for not giving opponents time to match numbers? Or would the empathetic referee blow time off to allow time for numbers to be matched?

 

[Drift]

FK for joining the lineout and gaining an advantage from having an additional player. If a player drops out then it's all good.

 

[menace]

Yep - swap before throw is fine. Can only join gap without a swap once ball left hands of thrower.
FK for naughtiness.

 

[TheBFG]

There was a "TV game" here this weekend where this happened, but nobody dropped out :shrug: Happened so fast and was just let go!

 

[SimonSmith]

As has been mentioned ad infinitum, USAR is plowing a lonely furrow here

 

[crossref]

in the 7-a-aside tourny I reffed on Saturday lots of receivers came into the line just before the throw, normally to be lifted.

I stopped the first one I saw (much to his surprise and rolling of eyes).

Later I watched one of the more senior (and particualr) LSRFUR assessor/refs do a game, where the same thing happened and he didn't bat an eyelid.

I don't think that there is consistency in England on this.

 

[The Fat]

I'm aware we've discussed this before but what was the consensus of the Receiver (aka scrum half) joining the lineout before the throw? Does a team mate already in the lineout need to drop out?

Yes. Team mate must drop out.
If after the throw, no need for team mate to drop out.
(In other words, I agree with menace and I think Drift is saying the same thing in a different way)

 

[Browner]

in the 7-a-aside tourny I reffed on Saturday lots of receivers came into the line just before the throw, normally to be lifted.

I stopped the first one I saw (much to his surprise and rolling of eyes).

Later I watched one of the more senior (and particualr) LSRFUR assessor/refs do a game, where the same thing happened and he didn't bat an eyelid.

I don't think that there is consistency in England on this.

Agree with that, there isn't in LSRFUR it would seem.
No wonder players complain.

Regarding timings, Law uses : 'Commenced' in 19.8(I) & 'begins' in 19.9(a) & 'forms' in 19.8(a). That can't help !!!!

I'd offer this thought, does it really matter? Shouldn't we lobby to get the IRB to just always allow it....would that be an easier solution?

 

[B52 REF]

Crossref- wasn't me !! at breifing we said make sure non throwers put up a hooker and don't let receiver run in- but manage it (mind you you might have missed the breif or even been at tuorney other than rugbyrocks (;

 

[crossref]

Crossref- wasn't me !! at breifing we said make sure non throwers put up a hooker and don't let receiver run in- but manage it (mind you you might have missed the breif or even been at tuorney other than rugbyrocks (;

i was at rugby rocks -- but I am sure in a different division

it wasn't discussed at the briefing we had.
We did cover making sure non-throwers put someone in the tramlines, though.

 

[RobLev]

I'm aware we've discussed this before but what was the consensus of the Receiver (aka scrum half) joining the lineout before the throw? Does a team mate already in the lineout need to drop out?

If so, what is the sanction for failing to do so? Is it a FK for not giving opponents time to match numbers? Or would the empathetic referee blow time off to allow time for numbers to be matched?

From a non-reffing law-reader:

19.8(i) says that:

[LAWS]If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.[/LAWS]

The sanction for him not taking that position is:

[LAWS]Free kick on the 15 metre line along the line of touch[/LAWS]

Before the ball is thrown in(/lineout begins), though:

[LAWS]Participating players in a lineout (which includes the receiver) may change places before the ball is thrown.[/LAWS]

After the ball is thrown (also 19.8(i)):

[LAWS]Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.[/LAWS]

My understanding of all that, FWIW, is that until the ball is thrown, the receiver stays 2m back from the line, unless he changes places with someone in the lineout. Once the ball leaves the thrower's hands, however, that restriction is lifted and he can enter the lineout without swap or sanction.

I understood that that has been the consensus previously expressed on here; but that may not be right.

 

[Taff]

Just a thought, but my understanding is that the opposition must be given as "reasonable" chance to equalise numbers. I admit I'm flying by the seat of my pants a bit.

Now, while I always understood this to mean that they should be given a chance to drop a player out if numbers are reduced, I suppose you could equally argue that the opposition should be given a fair chance to bring in another player if the receiver from the throwing in team have moved into the line.

 

[tim White]

(d)
When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay. Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the lineout until the lineout has ended.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

That would solve it.

 

[Na Madrai]

My understanding of all that, FWIW, is that until the ball is thrown, the receiver stays 2m back from the line, unless he changes places with someone in the lineout. Once the ball leaves the thrower's hands, however, that restriction is lifted and he can enter the lineout without swap or sanction.

I understood that that has been the consensus previously expressed on here; but that may not be right.[/QUOTE]




I believe that this is the answer.

In real terms, the player in the scrum-half position must be two metres back. This player cannot join the LO until the ball leaves the thrower's hands - it is highly improbable that anyone starting from a stationary position can move two metres and be lifted whilst the ball travels from the thrower's hand to position two or four in the LO, the 'normal' catchers' positions. There simply is not the time.

Throwing to the back of the line may be possible but the movement would have to be perfectly timed. I am fairly sure that at the first Society meeting of the season a couple of years back, the North Mids referees were all instructed to simply refuse to allow this tactic and appeared on the web site accordingly although I cannot now find it there!

NM

 

[Wedgie]

My understanding of all that, FWIW, is that until the ball is thrown, the receiver stays 2m back from the line, unless he changes places with someone in the lineout. Once the ball leaves the thrower's hands, however, that restriction is lifted and he can enter the lineout without swap or sanction.

I understood that that has been the consensus previously expressed on here; but that may not be right.

I believe that this is the answer.

In real terms, the player in the scrum-half position must be two metres back. This player cannot join the LO until the ball leaves the thrower's hands - it is highly improbable that anyone starting from a stationary position can move two metres and be lifted whilst the ball travels from the thrower's hand to position two or four in the LO, the 'normal' catchers' positions. There simply is not the time.

Throwing to the back of the line may be possible but the movement would have to be perfectly timed. I am fairly sure that at the first Society meeting of the season a couple of years back, the North Mids referees were all instructed to simply refuse to allow this tactic and appeared on the web site accordingly although I cannot now find it there!

NM

Had a situation recently where Blue called for a 3 man line out. Blue pod of 2 lifters and 1 jumper back-peddled, taking the Red line out participants with them which created a huge amount of space at the front of the line. Then Blue receiver (9) took the ball thrown in from the hooker at the front of the line. He then had a clear line of space to made *a lot* of ground. It didn't look right to me but at the time I couldn't figure out why, but Blue 9 MUST have joined the lineout before the ball had left the thrower's hands. So should have been free-kick under 19.8(i). ("There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas......" )


However, this got me thinking.....


1) Would this have been OK if one of the other three Blue line out participants had, before the ball had been thrown (and simultaneously with Blue 9 joining at the front of the line out) dropped back into the receiver position towards the back of the lineout?


2) Alternatively, and a little more speculatively, with that much space at the front of the line out, could the blue thrower pop the ball up to himself and catch it 5m in, much as he may do on a Quick Throw In? A pre-requisite for this might be a very dumb Red hooker ;-)


Thanks,
Wedgie.

 

[ChrisR]

1. Yes.

2. Lobbed ball would allow enough time for receiver to join after the throw but I don't think the thrower caould throw to himself.

 

[didds]

is there ever a sanction for not giving opponents time to match numbers?

surely not? all that could happen is that there is no chance of getting a FK for the oppo having too many, which seems eminently reasonable as discussed to death.

didds

 

[didds]

Just a thought, but my understanding is that the opposition must be given as "reasonable" chance to equalise numbers.

Only if the FK for too many is expected/sought. If the throwing team want to throw in for whatever tactical reason because they got their men there and ready to go while the defeners are fannying around why should the throwers have to wait? Otherwise it means to some degree that the non0-throwers can dicate the tempo of the game and run the clock down if they choose to.

didds

 

[didds]

wedgie, why must the blue s/half have joined the line before the throw?

He can join it AFTER the throw... and a reasonably weighted 5.1m throw would be easily intercepted by a player standing ~ 2.5 metres from the LoT.

Didds

 

[RobLev]

Only if the FK for too many is expected/sought. If the throwing team want to throw in for whatever tactical reason because they got their men there and ready to go while the defeners are fannying around why should the throwers have to wait? Otherwise it means to some degree that the non0-throwers can dicate the tempo of the game and run the clock down if they choose to.

didds

Law 19.8(e):

[LAWS]If the team throwing in the ball put fewer than the usual number of players in the lineout, their opponents must be given a reasonable time to move enough players out of the lineout to satisfy this Law.[/LAWS]

If the non-throwing team are "fannying around", then they're perhaps taking more than a reasonable amount of time? Other than that, though, the Law is there - if the defenders get no advantage, then FK against the throwers on the 15.