Referee positioning - Try no Try?

[Dickie E]

However, Seeking some response from one TJ and not the other, OUTSIDE THEIR REMIT whould be a rescipe for disaster.

Yeah, I get it but how bizarre! Like breaking your left hand then refusing to use your right hand out of some form of unnatural natural justice.

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[Dickie E]

Or more to the point that your TJs are not the same as those in the UK. Our TJs are a guy who is there. They are not trained in anyway shape or form.

Often (for the away team where only the team.the coach and "first aider" travel) the TJ is a reserve. Or it is the last guy out of the bar and down to pitch side.

Other threads have covere that yours have done the course and are,at least, quasi ARs if not ineffect ARs as opposed to a guy with a flag.

we have TJs too that aren't trained. Sometimes its someone's dad with the flag in one hand and a beer in the other. Or some kid who'd rather be talking to his mates on the halfway line.

BUT if we also have a qualified AR / TJ on the other side, we are allowed to work with him/her as a team of 2. We aren't forced to treat both at the same level of competence / incompetence.

 

[ChuckieB]

There's not much point TJs going behind posts if they can't make that call with accuracy. If it had missed by a metre, fair enough. But overuling an official on a line ball call ....

Maybe its an England thing

It's a triangulation thing. With TJ's on their own post I don't see necessarily that they should be any better placed to see what has gone on with the ball in relation to the post that they are not monitoring. Perhaps the ref had a better perspective from a distance away and can see the ball as being over the height of the upright and cannot rely on one or either of the TJ's under the circumstances.

A hard call to make at the best of times when it is not obviously between but more over. Unless I was sure I wouldn't actively seek to overrule.

 

[didds]

I heard something ages ago though Im not really sure how valid it is... that each TJ merely flags he/her own post. So if I am on the left post then as long as the ball passes to my right over bar height I put my flag up.

meanwhile the right post TJ flags if the ball passes to his/her left over bar height.

two flags = goal.

Now - that's clearly not what really happens anyway cos otherwise you'd see a flag up for any kick high enough that actually missed by miles, which we don;t see.

BUT... it would be a reason for both flags up if one TJ had a ball pass over his/her post and judged it "in", as the other TJ would have flagged oon his/her post only

didds

 

[Pegleg]

Yeah, I get it but how bizarre! Like breaking your left hand then refusing to use your right hand out of some form of unnatural natural justice.

Whatever floats your boat.

The similarity is none existant. Rules govern one and not the other. Fairness and being seemn to be fair is also important. I'm guessing you are ignoring the "outside their remit bit" If the are TJs here they are only allowed to signal touch and successful kicks. In another thread we came to understand that you have a different system. I accept your system is different to ours. You need to need also to accept it (you don't need to agree with it).

 

[Pegleg]

I heard something ages ago though Im not really sure how valid it is... that each TJ merely flags he/her own post. So if I am on the left post then as long as the ball passes to my right over bar height I put my flag up.

meanwhile the right post TJ flags if the ball passes to his/her left over bar height.

two flags = goal.

Now - that's clearly not what really happens anyway cos otherwise you'd see a flag up for any kick high enough that actually missed by miles, which we don;t see.

BUT... it would be a reason for both flags up if one TJ had a ball pass over his/her post and judged it "in", as the other TJ would have flagged oon his/her post only

didds

That's from the days of TJs and not ARS and is really still the case out in the sticks. Where you have ARs you triangulate as Chuckie suggests You say that the kick is good from your angle and if the other agrees, up go the flags. Never had a case where as a pair of ARs we've had a disagreement. But we all know the clubs where the ball could go through dead centre and the AR will shake his flag from side to side with gusto.

 

[crossref]

I am not entirely sure that the consultation process you describe .. which is exactly what we are taught ..is actually a good thing.

In the incident that happened to me I suspect that one AR wasn't paying attention (yes this could happen even with a society AR) and then went with the decision made by the other.

It might actually be a better protocol to signal independently ..
If the ref has one up, one down it's easy to take responsibility for the decision

If you had one signal, one 'not sure' again it would be very helpful for the ref to know this and make the call . It's going to happen on a close one.

Of course this brings us right back to the old chestnut of how to distinguish the flag signals for 'miss' and 'don't know' or 'wasnt watching' which, officially, are identical. I do like it when TJs use the unofficial swipe to definitively indicate a miss

 

[Dixie]

It's a triangulation thing. ... Unless I was sure I wouldn't actively seek to overrule.

Sounds wise. It's a rare kick that flies dead straight - most fade with the kicker's round-the-corner action. That being so, the referee is perhaps worst placed of the three to know at what moment exactly the ball was "above" the posts - had it, for example, been five yards past the goal line when it seemed to go over? In those circumstances I'd have had a conversation with the chap on the post - and only if he said he'd thought "straight above" was a goal would I have over-ruled.

 

[Dickie E]

The similarity is none existant. Rules govern one and not the other. Fairness and being seemn to be fair is also important. I'm guessing you are ignoring the "outside their remit bit" If the are TJs here they are only allowed to signal touch and successful kicks. In another thread we came to understand that you have a different system. I accept your system is different to ours. You need to need also to accept it (you don't need to agree with it).

OK & I understand. It was this bit that I struggled to get my head around (but not wanting to make it a federal issue):

As to the Club TJ, if it is one I know and trust I may be inclined to have a little look at them to gauge their reaction. I should point out here that I would need to have knowledge of both TJs to make this a justifiable action.

 

[Pinky]

I try to remember to ask the TJs to agree that kick has gone over before flagging and if they disagree or are unsure to let me know and I'll decide.

As for informal "advice" from a TJ, depends who it is and what it is about. Long history has been that if a TJ ro AR thinks it's a try they run round behind the posts, or stay out wide if they think there is a problem. Also relevant who is the TJ. I had a spell where my son (a qualified and better ref than me) would run touch. Andy advice from him was welcome, but from the coach who keeps shout "off his feet ref" not so welcome.