Reffing Contested Scrums Safely

[nottheorgangrinder]

Hello everyone

After skulking around in the shadows for the best part of 12 months, viewing loads of forum threads under the invisibility cloak of 'guest' status, I thought it was about time I actively engaged.

I'm a very new convert to the art of refereeing - my lad's U9 coach asked if I would help out by picking up the whistle, so they could concentrate on the coaching, last season, and, whilst informing them of the caveat that I haven't played since forlornly freezing what passed as my wotsits off on the wing during third year house matches, I agreed.

So, ELRA duly completed, RFU-branded Thunderer issued, not to mention a lot of watching matches and poring over the law book & Age Grade rules of play (and the aforementioned skulking around here...), and I felt 'ready' to ref my first U9s matches towards the end of last season, and on into U10s this season.

I've really enjoyed it so far, and I learn something new each time I go out on to the pitch of a Sunday. I've managed to get a reasonable handle on passes for the breakdown at this age, but the one aspect of the game that I worry about most is the contested scrum.

To start off with, there is never a pre-match brief at any of our games (U10), which, given the fact that contesting the scrum is new for the players coming up from U9s, I'm surprised at. Is this usual for this level of rugby, or is it something that should happen as a matter of course no matter what the age group?

My main issue in matches is I'm finding it difficult to judge who is responsible when the scrum wheels or collapses (thankfully, this has only happened a couple of times, both times with no injury to anyone). I haven't penalised, just reset with same team putting in - I find it difficult to lay blame because most of the time both sets of forwards don't really know how to bind, or even how to engage properly yet (still get some scrums where the little mites kind of rest their heads against each others' shoulders). Can anyone suggest the sort of things should I be looking for that might lead me to the correct decisions in these situations?

Any advice would be very gratefully received. And apologies for such a ridiculously long post.

 

[Browner]

Yes have a briefing, this is the perfect age to establish LONG BINDS high on the back/flank of oppo prop, personally at U10 i'd include all the forwards to understand that the 2nd row [back row - I can't remember?] MUSTN'T shove b4 the ball is fed NO EXCEPTIONS. Use the period of time between SET & Y9 to have a good look at all binding & head positions, players will respond, I've shouted "HOLD THE SHOVE I'M CHECKING THE BINDS" which invariably works - if you get that right you won't have many collapses IME...... As for wheeling, this is usually just a mismatch of size/strength ..... if it keeps happening suggest to the coaches that they look to rebalance the strength more equally to cancel out the movement. ............. ps. My major grief was other refs not allowing a push 1.5m, measure 1.5m , it's a lot longer than it looks , allow it [provided its a straight push ] , it helps us produce front rows that can destroy the Wannabeees !........ pps Welcome to the madness, it's like downhill mountain biking, fast, sometimes scary, mainly bumpy, but there is a great feeling when you arrive unscathed & in control - enjoy the ride NTOG

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Welcome.

 

[crossref]

Hi nottheorganfrinder - welcome to the forum!

1 - yes you should definitely have a pre-match brief for front row. But at that age keep it very, very short and simple. No point lecturing them on hypothetical transgressions.

2 - (unless there is something really obviously causing it - like a 70kg prop hell bent on a mission) I think that at U10 you can normally safely assume that neither side are deliberately wheeling or collapsing and a reset will be correct.

However repeating wheels and especially collapses are a clear safety problem and you absolutely can't ignore them, you do need to work out what's causing it, and fix the problem. (else go uncontesed).

How to work it out? I thnk you are on the right track already: don't look for skulduggery : look for bad techniques, loose binds, bad positions etc.

 

[Dixie]

Welcome Nottheorgangrinder (can I call you Monkey for short :wink

Crossref, who has a lot of recent age group experience, talks a lot of sense here. It's technique that is causing the problems, not cheating. With these age groups, it's all about enjoyment and coaching. The referee needs to help them acheive a safe scrum. So what should you do?

Firstly, be better than your peers and absolutely INSIST on a briefing and a stud check (I bet those go by the board as well, almost certainly at tournaments but probably at friendlies as well). That will mark you out to all and sundry as someone who knows what they are doing - which is half the battle, especially when you haven't a clue!

Secondly, be clear at each scrum what you are looking for in the FR. Keep it simple. Straight and level. You'll often see a fat larger prop struggling to get his arm all the way round his hooker, and so from the outset he's lining up to drive inwards instead of straight. This prop needs to learn to "pop his shoulder" - which means shrugging the point of his shoulder beneath the armpit of the hooker, so you can see six shoulder points in a fairly straight line, rather than a zigzag. To do this, the prop may need to bind on the hooker's shirt rather than aroud his waistband. This is a coaching issue, of course. But in the middle and faced with the poor technique, you are the only one who can sort it out. If the problem lies with the opposition, you need to have a helpful and non-confrontational word with their coaches afterwards as well.

Collapses are very rare in age group rugby, and are usually caused by feet slipping. If you are reffing with second rows in place, always make sure you whistle very fast to prevent any further shove from behind, and try to move to a nearby spot of ground with better traction. It's possible that one player's poor bind is contributing - remember that regardless of what you see on TV, no prop is allowed to pull his opponent's shirt downwards. if you see this, speak firmly to the player, but always in coaching mode rather than punishment mode.

Many of us on here started exactly where you started. Good luck with your reffing; don't narrow your horizons. If you enjoy it, you could be reffing your son's club 1st XV in years to come.

 

[FlipFlop]

Refereed youth games over the weekend - older age group, but probably just the same standard/knowledge as U10 is the UK (first season rugby for some players)

I had 1 prop who didn't know where to bind. First time I thought he was trying to get an advantage, so FK'ed him on the bind. Then I realised, he just didn't know. So the next scrum, I got his opposite number and him to pack down, and then moved his hand to where to bind should be - no problem after that.

Another prop though crouch meant to round his back, and as a result got into a horrible position, and lost every scrum. A short explanation and showed him how to keep his back straight, and suddenly a better position, and more stable scrums, and they won their own ball!!!!

And I also got the locks to pack down lower, so their head was in the right place. The meant the props were not pushed out by the locks heads (so props were boring in, just not deliberately), and locks heads didn't pop out.

Every scrum was almost a scrum coaching session. (I think the coaches don't understand proper scrum technique, but that is another story)

Now - I felt comfortable doing that. Maybe you don't. My point is though, don't worry about the penalties etc at that age group - prioritise getting them doing it right. Right binding, right engagement. Front five need to be right. If necessary stop and go again, or get the coaches over to explain/help etc. Don't forget your 3 main priorities at the scrum are: SAFETY, SAFETY & SAFETY. And if you get them to do it properly this week, you not only help prevent injury this week, but next week and the week after.....

AND

WELCOME to the forum.

 

[didds]

To start off with, there is never a pre-match brief at any of our games (U10), which, given the fact that contesting the scrum is new for the players coming up from U9s, I'm surprised at. Is this usual for this level of rugby, or is it something that should happen as a matter of course no matter what the age group?

Given most refs at these AGs are the coaches who will have no ref training at all it doesn;t surpise me that they don;t give a briefing. If you chose to do so i would commend you wholeheartedly for ensuring there is understanding etc.

Do remember that these are young children though, and captaincy at these AGs is in reality meaningless, so don't go looking to get captain buy-in pre-match with regard to control etc "We spoke about this before the game skipper!"

didds

 

[Dan_A]

All of the above is good, plus I'd suggest some specific things for a festival set-up (4 or 5 games against different opposition, sometimes ending in a final for a trophy):-
1) At a festival there should always be a referees' briefing so that refs from all the clubs can agree some things - I always ask how we want to handle quick tapped free kicks (does the ball need to leave the hand etc).
2) If all the referees do a stud check before the first game of the day then you're good to go for the rest of the day
3) I'd suggest the same approach for a pre-festival briefing on scrums as turn round times mean it's really not realisitic to do pre-match briefings before each and every festival game.


Also, and something new to me, we had an RFU provided referee a couple of weeks ago who told all the coaches that he would shout "HOLD" once a dominant scrum had pushed for the 1.5m. That allowed the dominant scrum to get their advantage but if they pushed more than that it would be a penalty. This worked pretty well.

Final thing, if the scrum's not working because of a binding issue, don't be afraid to stop the game and show the players the correct binding in a non-live scrum. This can then act as your warning so any further deliberate infringement is a PK. Saw this being done very well in a schools match the other week.

 

[Browner]

Every scrum was almost a scrum coaching session. (I think the coaches don't understand proper scrum technique, but that is another story)
.

Tut Tut Tut flippyfloppy, belittling coaching knowledge! Some experienced x-forwards might point a sharpened finger of lack of knowledge of referee's in this area ! & to quote a Catherine tate character.... "how very dare you" ............... such sweeping generalisations aren't wise

 

[FlipFlop]

Tut Tut Tut flippyfloppy, belittling coaching knowledge! Some experienced x-forwards might point a sharpened finger of lack of knowledge of referee's in this area ! & to quote a Catherine tate character.... "how very dare you" ............... such sweeping generalisations aren't wise

Err - was refering to the particular coaches. Who I know, and who I know weren't forwards, and appear not to have taught basic body positions and binding to their charges.

Some coaches are very good. Some Refs are very good, some are bad, at scrum time.

And I fail to see how I was making a sweeping generalisation when talking about the coaches of 2 teams.

 

[colesy]

Also, and something new to me, we had an RFU provided referee a couple of weeks ago who told all the coaches that he would shout "HOLD" once a dominant scrum had pushed for the 1.5m. That allowed the dominant scrum to get their advantage but if they pushed more than that it would be a penalty. This worked pretty well.

I do this as well, but it's only a free kick if they push too far. I'm not sure where I picked this up from though. I do the same for a 45 degree wheel but it's a penalty for that offence if the wheel past 45 degrees is deliberate.

 

[Dixie]

on into U10s this season.

I've really enjoyed it so far, and I learn something new each time I go out on to the pitch of a Sunday. I've managed to get a reasonable handle on passes for the breakdown at this age, but the one aspect of the game that I worry about most is the contested scrum.

To start off with, there is never a pre-match brief at any of our games (U10), which, given the fact that contesting the scrum is new for the players coming up from U9s, I'm surprised at.

Sorry this has taken me so long to twig, but:

RFU Regulation 15

Appendix 1 para 9c) At Under 10, the scrum is uncontested by both sides: the team awarded the scrum will throw the ball into the scrum and must be allowed to win it without contest. Opponents cannot push or strike for the ball. If they do, a free pass restart is awarded to the team throwing the ball into the scrum.

http://www.rfu.com/~/media/files/20...ion_15_appdx_1_new_under_10_rules_of_play.pdf

Perhaps no-one should be contesting any scrums at this age group?

 

[didds]

I do this as well, but it's only a free kick if they push too far. I'm not sure where I picked this up from though. I do the same for a 45 degree wheel but it's a penalty for that offence if the wheel past 45 degrees is deliberate.

surely under IRB U19 regs its a PK for ANY deliberate wheel no matter what angle?

20.11 Scrum wheeled
(a)
No wheeling. A team must not intentionally wheel a scrum.

Sanction: Penalty kick

Though I would concur that the next bit is a bit ambiguous with respect to the above

If a wheel reaches 45 degrees, the referee must stop play. If the wheel is unintentional, the referee orders another scrum at the place where the scrum is stopped. The same team throws in the ball.


didds

 

[nottheorgangrinder]

Thanks, Chaps, loads of great points to make a note of. I'm pleased to say there was a fair handful of things mentioned that I do try to do at scrum time so I think (hope) I'm going in the right direction.

Our constituent body is Gloucestershire RFU so our age group play the 'Old Rules of Play', which is essentially the old Continuum rules (our age group is the last one in the county that uses this rule set, U9s and under follow the rest of the developed world and use the 'New Rules of Play'. Or, at least, I think that's the case anyway...) - so it's 3 vs 3 in the scrum, contested but only 1.5m push allowed (Browner will be pleased to know I have a reasonable idea of the distance they can go to:biggrin.

Really appreciate everyone's input so far, I think it will come in very handy at the weekend!

Cheers
NTOG

 

[PaulDG]

It's technique that is causing the problems, not cheating.

For the forwards that's almost certainly true.

The backs, however...

It's been a couple of years since I did U10s but I'd be [very pleasantly] surprised if there aren't still a few "win at all costs" coaches out there.

They'll be encouraging the backs (especially the ones behind the referee) to come as far forward as possible (i.e. about 6 or more metres offside) on a defensive scrum and probably several other things I've not heard of.

So just before you say "yes 9", take a second to have a look over your shoulder.

 

[nottheorgangrinder]

For the forwards that's almost certainly true.

The backs, however...

It's been a couple of years since I did U10s but I'd be [very pleasantly] surprised if there aren't still a few "win at all costs" coaches out there.

They'll be encouraging the backs (especially the ones behind the referee) to come as far forward as possible (i.e. about 6 or more metres offside) on a defensive scrum and probably several other things I've not heard of.

So just before you say "yes 9", take a second to have a look over your shoulder.

That's probably a good shout - I make a point of getting them back 5m before the scrum is set but then turn my attention fully to the engagement process. Wouldn't put it past some of the little buggers come back up the second my back is turned!