Ruck clarification recieved today.

[Account Deleted]

From WRU office

Law Clarity on Ruck
I write with reference to the above subject matter and reports that you may have seen and heard in both the media and match commentary since the beginning of the 6 Nations Tournament
Coaches sought clarification from the IRB referees manager regarding two issues around the ruck area.
1. When the ball was deemed to be out of the ruck
2. Offside at Ruck
With regard to Point 1 (above) match officials have deemed the ball to be out of the ruck as soon as the scrum half’s hands are placed on the ball and that is how it has been refereed for many years.
The two points above have been clarified at the recent International coach and referees meetings and as such have been refereed accordingly since the commencement of the 6 Nations and also all other professional gamers worldwide.
I must stress that the below are NOT law changes simply clarification
Point 1 – Strict application of Law 16.6 – A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck. The defensive side cannot move forward past their offside line until the Number 9 (or player acting in that position) lifts the ball to pass it. Merely placing hands on the ball whilst it is on the floor does not signify completion of that ruck.

 

[Browner]

Would be nice to see it written somewhere.

Yes, I know we've always had the LoTG .... but they never seemed to be enough to curtail that pro-interpretation become law of cascaded usage !!

 

[crossref]

ATTR - is that an official, cascaded communication ? Can you upload a PDF ? or is it merely an email from a senior individual.

It's not much of a clarification

From WRU office


I must stress that the below are NOT law changes simply clarification
Point 1 – Strict application of Law 16.6 – A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck. The defensive side cannot move forward past their offside line until the Number 9 (or player acting in that position) lifts the ball to pass it. Merely placing hands on the ball whilst it is on the floor does not signify completion of that ruck.

so which is it --- when the ball leaves the ruck ? or when the #9 lifts the ball.
those two things are completely independent - and indeed could happen in either order.

 

[Phil E]

From WRU office

Law Clarity on Ruck
I write with reference to the above subject matter and reports that you may have seen and heard in both the media and match commentary since the beginning of the 6 Nations Tournament
Coaches sought clarification from the IRB referees manager regarding two issues around the ruck area.
1. When the ball was deemed to be out of the ruck
2. Offside at Ruck
With regard to Point 1 (above) match officials have deemed the ball to be out of the ruck as soon as the scrum half’s hands are placed on the ball and that is how it has been refereed for many years.
The two points above have been clarified at the recent International coach and referees meetings and as such have been refereed accordingly since the commencement of the 6 Nations and also all other professional gamers worldwide.
I must stress that the below are NOT law changes simply clarification
Point 1 – Strict application of Law 16.6 – A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck. The defensive side cannot move forward past their offside line until the Number 9 (or player acting in that position) lifts the ball to pass it. Merely placing hands on the ball whilst it is on the floor does not signify completion of that ruck.

Well that's good isn't it? They contradicted themselves in the same clarification! Clear as mud LOL

 

[OB..]

Well that's good isn't it? They contradicted themselves in the same clarification! Clear as mud LOL

Poorly expressed, yes. However I think the first bit in bold refers to how the situation has been refereed up to now (not that I entirely agree!). The second is how it is to be refereed in future.

There is still the conflict between lifting the ball and the ball leaving the ruck, of course.

 

[Account Deleted]

From WRU office

Law Clarity on Ruck
I write with reference to the above subject matter and reports that you may have seen and heard in both the media and match commentary since the beginning of the 6 Nations Tournament
Coaches sought clarification from the IRB referees manager regarding two issues around the ruck area.
1. When the ball was deemed to be out of the ruck
2. Offside at Ruck
With regard to Point 1 (above) match officials have deemed the ball to be out of the ruck as soon as the scrum half’s hands are placed on the ball and that is how it has been refereed for many years.
The two points above have been clarified at the recent International coach and referees meetings and as such have been refereed accordingly since the commencement of the 6 Nations and also all other professional gamers worldwide.
I must stress that the below are NOT law changes simply clarification
Point 1 – Strict application of Law 16.6 – A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck. The defensive side cannot move forward past their offside line until the Number 9 (or player acting in that position) lifts the ball to pass it. Merely placing hands on the ball whilst it is on the floor does not signify completion of that ruck.

Well that's good isn't it? They contradicted themselves in the same clarification! Clear as mud LOL

Not at all! The first is clearly state as "... how it has been refereed for many years..." The second is how the IRB wants it done now.

 

[OB..]

"Lifts the ball to pass it" - does that mean lifts it out of the ruck? After all you cannot pass it otherwise.

 

[crossref]

Not at all! The first is clearly state as "... how it has been refereed for many years..." The second is how the IRB wants it done now.

Well, it's how the WRU want it. Or at least how they understand it.
Like OB I don't agree with their assessment of how it has previously been done.
How they want it now is more confusing than how they they say it used to be. Is it when it clears the ruck, or when the scrum half lifts it up?

 

[OB..]

Just came across this:

There was a law ruling made by the IRB towards the end of last year stating that the ball had to be cleared from the ruck for it to be considered as out. In this instance the ball is not cleared when the scrumhalf had his hands on the ball. What we as referees look for is for the ball to be clear and obviously out of the ruck before we rule it as out. What confuses some people is that some referees in the past would say, “Hands on - the ball is out” I include myself in this. The IRB ruling made it very clear for us that it is not the case.

http://www.sareferees.com/ref-replies/duty-ref-466--marius-van-der-westhuisen/2829598/

 

[menace]

so which is it --- when the ball leaves the ruck ? or when the #9 lifts the ball.
those two things are completely independent - and indeed could happen in either order.

Yes, they need a clarification for their poorly worded clarification.
I think it is safe to assume your "or" is implied. That is, as soon as either condition is true then the ball is out. Therefore it doesn't matter on the order.

For mine, though, if a SH needs to dig for the ball, then it's only out as soon as the lifted ball is clear of the bodies (then he's fair game). If he's dicking about with it then he'll get the 'use it' call and has 5 seconds to shift it...and my 5 seconds may be variable depending in the cynical nature of the dicking about (or how lippy the SH as been all game). :booty:

 

[TNT88]

I agree with the clarification, it's a good rule of thumb that I have used for a while

 

[crossref]

So it seems like the irb communicated some kind of clarification to unions from which WRU and SARFU drew opposite conclusions.
ATTR you didn't say what is the nature of the text you have, is it an official WRU cascade, or just an email from one senior bloke you happen to know.

 

[The Fat]

There was a game at the weekend, I think Jaco Peyper was the referee???, where a player says to the ref "But his hands were on so it's out" to which the ref replied "Not anymore"

 

[Taff]

Poorly expressed, yes.

That's what I thought. Sometimes I think any confusion caused by "Clarifications" could so easily be avoided by running it past others before it went "public" - eg you could do a lot worse than this forum.

... However I think the first bit in bold refers to how the situation has been refereed up to now (not that I entirely agree!). The second is how it is to be refereed in future.

That's how it was described verbally to us. A welcome clarification IMO.

... There is still the conflict between lifting the ball and the ball leaving the ruck, of course.

What I think it was meant to say was "lifted clear of the ruck".

Merely placing hands on the ball whilst it is on the floor does not signify completion of that ruck.

What it boils down to gents is that "Hands On" means sod all. To a lot of people (myself included) it never meant anything anyway - which explains why some players, coaches and spectators got confused, because it did mean something to some referees. Only last weekend I was asked at the PMB "When is the ball out of the ruck?"

 

[The Fat]

Originally Posted by OB..
Poorly expressed, yes.

That's what I thought. Sometimes I think any confusion caused by "Clarifications" could so easily be avoided by running it past others - you could do a lot worse than this forum.

I am always reminded, when discussing the clarity that is often missing from IRB clarifications and memos, of the phone call from a plumbing contractor to a design consultant when seeking clarification of several items shown/not shown on the project drawings. The answer given by the consultant: "I thought I had been sufficiently vague to cover myself"

 

[crossref]

What I think it was meant to say was "lifted clear of the ruck".

if that's the case then that isn't just a minor error, it's a complete cockup of a clarification as that goes directly to heart of the question: Is it out when he lifts it? or is it out when it is clear of the ruck?


The thing is : it says one thing, and Taff you have assumed it means the other.

 

[The Fat]

I don't know why this is so hard and why we try doggedly to over complicate things.

16.6 Successful end to a ruck
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.

 

[Taff]

if that's the case then that isn't just a minor error, it's a complete cockup of a clarification as that goes directly to heart of the question: Is it out when he lifts it? or is it out when it is clear of the ruck? The thing is : it says one thing, and Taff you have assumed it means the other.

It is out when he ball is clear of the ruck; and in the majority of cases that will involve lifting it clear of the ruck.

It's a bit more than an assumption on my part, although I accept you weren't to know that. We had a meeting about 2-3 months ago where Nigel Whitehouse gave a talk. IIRC I think he's in charge of WRU refs now. During the Q&A this question came up, and Mr W explained clearly that hands on was going to mean nothing. He couldn't say a lot more at the time as it wasn't public, but he did say we would get a clarification in due course. This was obviously it.

I don't know why this is so hard and why we try doggedly to over complicate things.

Agreed. Lets keep it simple - "Hands On" means nothing.

It's still a ruck until the ball is clear of the ruck. We don't need to look for problems where they don't exist.

 

[crossref]

Taff - I agree with you view.

It is out when he ball is clear of the ruck; and in the majority of cases that will involve lifting it clear of the ruck.

But it's not what the WRU clarification says (!)

Point 1 – Strict application of Law 16.6 – A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck. The defensive side cannot move forward past their offside line until the Number 9 (or player acting in that position) lifts the ball to pass it. Merely placing hands on the ball whilst it is on the floor does not signify completion of that ruck.

 

[OB..]

I agree with the clarification, it's a good rule of thumb that I have used for a while

Which bit of the clarification are you agreeing with?!