Ruck clarification recieved today.

[OB..]

I don't know why this is so hard and why we try doggedly to over complicate things.

16.6 Successful end to a ruck
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.

The problem has arisen because we allow the scrum half to reach for the ball while it is still inside the ruck - technically that is illegal. We then have to decide how far that licence extends.

It started by being pragmatic and then people decided to systematise it, using different ad hoc approaches. It is the commonest question I hear at PMBs, probably because it gets different answers.

 

[Browner]

I don't know why this is so hard and why we try doggedly to over complicate things.

16.6 Successful end to a ruck
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.

Preparing to leave, about to leave, close to leaving or in the process of leaving, means it hasn't left.

Offside line is 2D as viewed from above, so a ruck is the same type of 2D image and has a perimeter, makes perfect sense to me.

 

[TNT88]

Which bit of the clarification are you agreeing with?!

When the scrum half picks the ball up the defenders can move forward. I've been ruling like that since before it was cool.

 

[Taff]

Realistically a ruck is going to be over within a nano-second of the SH lifting the ball; because he isn't going to pick it up off the floor and just leave it hovering in mid air but still in the ruck. To all intents and purposes, the lifting and the clearing will be done in one fluid move; ie it will be out before we can say "Out".

To me it seems pretty clear what is expected of all of us, although I'd like to think I would have worded it slightly better.

 

[Account Deleted]

I've highlighted the salient points.

From WRU office Not from from a person but a communication coming from the office I.E. an official communication

Law Clarity on Ruck
I write with reference to the above subject matter and reports that you may have seen and heard in both the media and match commentary since the beginning of the 6 Nations Tournament
Coaches sought clarification from the IRB referees manager The original request was made to the IRB from whom it can be inferred the reply cameregarding two issues around the ruck area.
1. When the ball was deemed to be out of the ruck
2. Offside at Ruck
With regard to Point 1 (above) match officials have deemed the ball to be out of the ruck as soon as the scrum half’s hands are placed on the ball and that is how it has been refereed for many years.
The two points above have been clarified at the recent International coach and referees meetings and as such have been refereed accordingly since the commencement of the 6 Nations and also all other professional gamers worldwide.
I must stress that the below are NOT law changes simply clarification
Point 1 – Strict application of Law 16.6 – A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck. The defensive side cannot move forward past their offside line until the Number 9 (or player acting in that position) lifts the ball to pass it. Merely placing hands on the ball whilst it is on the floor does not signify completion of that ruck. the requirement is the ball is lifted and not hands on. Whatever we have been doing individually it can be presumed that the IRB felt that at elite level the procedure being followed was not the one they wish to be followed.

 

[Account Deleted]

From the clarification:

"the requirement is the ball is lifted and not hands on."

What can that possibly mean?

 

[TNT88]

From the clarification:

"the requirement is the ball is lifted and not hands on."

What can that possibly mean?

Do you even lift bro?


(sorry had to)

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

for me it's simple if the scrum half ahas 2 hands on it, it is out.

 

[crossref]

for me it's simple if the scrum half ahas 2 hands on it, it is out.

in whcih case must have more 'unplayables' than the rest of us? as SH in your game can't go digging

 

[crossref]

To me it seems pretty clear what is expected of all of us, although I'd like to think I would have worded it slightly better.

you are saying it's good clarification -- except that it could have clearer

that means it was a poor clarification epper:

 

[winchesterref]

for me it's simple if the scrum half ahas 2 hands on it, it is out.

Completely at odds with the law as written and the clarification recently, no wonder confusion exists from week to week

 

[didds]

for me it's simple if the scrum half ahas 2 hands on it, it is out.

so if the 9 has to dig inside a ruck to drag the ball out to avoid another scrum restart... as soon as he has his hands on it, buried under legs and bodies etc you will permit the oppo to come around the ruck and flatten him?

Then he is knocked off the ball, he lets go of it and the ball is still inside the ruck. What happens to the oppo that were allowed to come around the ruck - are they now offside because the hands are off and the ball is still inside the ruck? or is the ruck over and they can go digging? Or... ?

didds

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Scrum ends when ball is out - Ruck ends when ball leaves.

Difference intentional or not? Is there a difference?

In practice just need to be consistent - surely?

 

[didds]

scrums rarely need a s/half to have to dig into the middle of them to free a ball.

I'm personally happy with whatever interpretation people want. But then we have to consider what we want that interpretation to mean/result in. If /shs can only literally move a ball that is 99% out (just inside the rear foot say) then we have to be happy with possibly lots more scrums as restarts for the ball that gets trapped.

As a coach I would want my sides driving past the ball of course. But for various reasons that doesn't always happen cleanly enough.

didds

 

[thepercy]

for me it's simple if the scrum half ahas 2 hands on it, it is out.

Apparently not anymore.

 

[Account Deleted]

you are saying it's good clarification -- except that it could have clearer

that means it was a poor clarification epper:

Why? Good, Better, Best. Possibly?

 

[The Fat]

This is so frustrating. No wonder coaches and players ask the same question at most PMBs
Ball is out when it's OUT FFS!

 

[Ian_Cook]

This is so frustrating. No wonder coaches and players ask the same question at most PMBs
Ball is out when it's OUT FFS!

Yep. This is best clarification I have seen on the issue, and is one that I would expect most referees here to use.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Good morning Ian, I like it also and the ball out part is easily explained.

However:

1. One could argue that is not written law "clear of Bodies"

2. One could argue that the SH hands hands in the ruck and is also offside as his foot is forward of hindmost teammate. I know we allow it.

3. What is so odd about requiring that last foot of the ruck to push the ball out or step over (similar to RL) it as the SH reaches to play it? So it is actually out. I know clarifications exist to allow SH to dig or otherwise we would have scrum after scrum.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Good morning Ian, I like it also and the ball out part is easily explained.

However:

1. One could argue that is not written law "clear of Bodies"

2. One could argue that the SH hands hands in the ruck and is also offside as his foot is forward of hindmost teammate. I know we allow it.

3. What is so odd about requiring that last foot of the ruck to push the ball out or step over (similar to RL) it as the SH reaches to play it? So it is actually out. I know clarifications exist to allow SH to dig or otherwise we would have scrum after scrum.

The difference with RL is that they can afford this because the defending backline is 10 metres away, and the defending markers (the two opponents marking the player playing the ball and the dummy half) must be "square" that is, lined up directly ahead of the play-the-ball and behind one another parallel to the touchline ("markers not square" is a PK in RL)

In RU, the defending backline is only one or two metres away, depending on how "deep" the ruck is, and in the modern game, rucks are very shallow because teams do not commit more than two or three (often less) defenders to the ruck. Consequently, the defending line is very close to the opponent's HMF.

Were we to apply your suggestion, the acting SH would probably be scragged more often that not when he tried to clear the ball, then what sort of game would we end up with?

What you suggest worked in the past for two reasons

1. Rucks were much, much deeper, with more players committed by both sides, so the defending line was further away, and

2. Players were less fit and considerably slower, so the acting SH had more time to clear.

I mentioned that RL has the defending line 10m back. It used to be only 5m until about 20 years ago. The reason that it was changed is was precisely because they recognised that players were becoming faster, fitter and stronger, and that was resulting in it becoming too easy for defending teams to stifle the attack.