Rucking is by definition reckless and dangerous

[davidlandy]

true. But compare Finn Russell and James Haskell's touching a player in the air for starters. And Sam Warburton's tip tackle v the Irish chap in week 1 of this 6N.

Foul play seems to be ignored now.


didds

I think you've got that tipped upside down: there *were* two tip tackles in that match but they were both by an Irish player (Keith Earls) against Wales. I don't remember any mentioned at the time (or since) by any Welsh player against Ireland. (Link?)

There was also another against Wales last weekend (by a French player) and Barnesy said just a PK, is it open season against Wales now?

PS. I have jokingly remarked in the past that the IRB memo about tip tackles only applies to Wales, but it's becoming less and less of a joke now.

PPS. No one want to hazard a guess at "Cui Bono"?

 

[didds]

well, yes I agree, I thought it was illegal, but the citing officer seems to have decided it was legal.

I don;t think it got to teh citing officer did it?

Certainly the TMO had no problems with it.

Im not even sure RP penalised MB in the end at all - DC's YV was possibly cos he'd now issued a PK and had to find something to fit it!
(along with the other cock-up theory that he had in his head somebody had to go to the bin, consipracy theory that it was to cover up his own stuff up).

didds

 

[didds]

semantics david - sorry

I meant the sam warburton tip tackle in the RWC game yonks ago.

Then there were the irish tip tackles in the welsh game this year.

I didn't mean SW making a tip tackle on an irish player - apologies, my poor use of words there.

didds

 

[crossref]

I am not sure exactly. I understand someone reviewed the video and decided not to cite him. Is that the Citing Officer?

 

[davidlandy]

semantics dabid - sorry

I meant the sam warburton tip tackle in the RWC game yonks ago.

Then there was the irish tip tackles in the welsh game this year.

I didn;t mean SW making a tip tackle on an irish player - apologies, my poor use of words there.

didds

Oh right! I see - completely understood :smile:

 

[RobLev]

Now that I've seen the incident....

I concede that Green was infringing by holding the ball and should be pinged but I'm a little surprised that nobody in 50 posts (that I could see) that Browns entry and joining the ruck is not being questioned?
Ie
[LAWS]b)
A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm. The bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body of the player joining the ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick


(c)
Placing a hand on another player in the ruck does not constitute binding.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

So If he's not joined to the ruck correctly does he still have the right to ruck for the ball in the first place? Technically I believe he's committed an infringement just as bad as green...he shouldn't have rights now to just go rucking away even if it is at the ball? I thought not as he's not part of that ruck, but I could be convinced/corrected. I'm sure I've seen plenty of PKs given where a player is not bound and kicks the ball out and they've been deemed as 'not part of the ruck' and therefore offside.....and I've done it myself (Or have I missed something? I only saw the clip above so did not see or hear the lead up or follow on of the refs decision).



I think we all agree if Poite go onto the whistle early enough this wouldn't have happened

Poite had signalled that the ball was out before MB got involved.

 

[didds]

Poite had signalled that the ball was out before MB got involved.

Absolutely.


View attachment 3399


However, this is potentially another huge cockup by RP as its clear that the tackled player still has his hands on the ball and a green player is above the ball - its difficult to see how the ball was out - but having signalled it was it then get very messy very quickly.

didds

 

[OB..]

(or perhaps he just didn't think it worth a RC, I am not sure)

That is all we can be sure of.

 

[Crucial]

MB must move at the speed of light according to the pic posted above if he is in that position after reacting to RPs call of the ball being 'out'. Not only is he right in the middle he is on the other side of a player on the ground..
Agree that he should not be regarded as part of the ruck at all.

Looks like a lot of offences going on and a poor reaction from RP.

If you go back solely to the original question of danger and the use of feet by MB, he applied very little thought to what he was doing. Even the the good old days of rucking it was bad form to rake or kick at the ball in the vicinity of a head. It was self policed, not subject to frame by frame analysis. The expectation was that you held the head as a sacrosanct area. Injuries from boot to head truly were accidental (usually).

I read the sad news today that schools in the UK are looking at banning tackles in rugby and only playing non tackle forms of the game. When players like MB (and Wood during the RWC) flail their boots around near heads, it really doesn't help the cause of allowing kids to play a contact game.

 

[RobLev]

MB must move at the speed of light according to the pic posted above if he is in that position after reacting to RPs call of the ball being 'out'. Not only is he right in the middle he is on the other side of a player on the ground..
Agree that he should not be regarded as part of the ruck at all.

...

When the ball was called out, there was no-one left on their feet bound over the ball. The Irish #7 arrived after MB.

 

[menace]

Poite had signalled that the ball was out before MB got involved.

Ok - fair enough. Didn't see or hear that in the clip (and didn't look out to me).

I agree with didds...I think that was part 2 of his cockup. That let it enter into stage 3 of total mess up on the ground!

 

[menace]

When the ball was called out, there was no-one left on their feet bound over the ball. The Irish #7 arrived after MB.

Without arguing any point as the clip I saw didn't show enough lead up or wide angle stuff.....so I'm not saying this ruck was over or not but just because no one is on their feet does not necessarily mean the ruck is over?

But of course RPs call of 'out' makes it over!

 

[L'irlandais]

preventing the ball being spread wide and a possible try? versus disrupting play leaving the PK awarded, defences reset etc?

standard approach to advantage called I would suggest. Play continues until the whistle is blown.

didds

advantage Green, play stops when Green infringes and we come back to the original penalty.

If you think about it, what was *MB hoping to achieve, had he kicked the ball clear of the finished "ruck", play would still have been brought back for Green's penalty. So to add insult to injury( and 9 stitches is some injury) not only was MB's reckless behavior neither carded nor cited, it was not even penalized, since play was brought back for an earlier infringement. *of course if he was hoping to end our scrum half's game early, then it makes sense to flail away with the boot in that manner.

As in the France v Ireland game, the "lesser" Nations are being disadvantaged by the moneyed Unions.
Fine for WR to publish the values of rugby, perhaps time they practiced what they preach.

 

[winchesterref]

Time to move on. :deadhorse:

 

[didds]

MB must move at the speed of light according to the pic posted above if he is in that position after reacting to RPs call of the ball being 'out'. Not only is he right in the middle he is on the other side of a player on the ground..
Agree that he should not be regarded as part of the ruck at all.

Looks like a lot of offences going on and a poor reaction from RP.

If you go back solely to the original question of danger and the use of feet by MB, he applied very little thought to what he was doing. Even the the good old days of rucking it was bad form to rake or kick at the ball in the vicinity of a head. It was self policed, not subject to frame by frame analysis. The expectation was that you held the head as a sacrosanct area. Injuries from boot to head truly were accidental (usually).

I read the sad news today that schools in the UK are looking at banning tackles in rugby and only playing non tackle forms of the game. When players like MB (and Wood during the RWC) flail their boots around near heads, it really doesn't help the cause of allowing kids to play a contact game.

Oh for pete's sake... Its a still taken from a video. I really wasn't trying to come up with the actual instant of ball out. By all means be my guest to do so. It was intended to demonstrate poite had called balls out when it clearly wasn't.

Didds

 

[Phil E]

As in the France v Ireland game, the "lesser" Nations are being disadvantaged by the moneyed Unions.

Which of those two are you claiming is a lesser nation? And why? :shrug:

 

[davidlandy]

... the "lesser" Nations are being disadvantaged by the moneyed Unions.

I have a suspicion you may be right but I'm not sure exactly how... if foul play is no longer being carded doesn't it affect all nations equally?