Satisfactory disciplinary result

[OB..]

Simon, van Zyl breached the barrier and entered the field of play. He injured McHugh and he had to be replaced by Chris White. He received a life ban. Neil Back was angered by a bad call and pushed over the referee. Brian Mujati also gave a shove to Owens and was cited for pushing the match official.

These are all different measures of physical assault and I think merit different sanctions. This black and white idea that you touch the referee you get a life ban is nonsense.

Agree 100%.

 

[SimonSmith]

I don't think that there's a black and white, but I do feel that Donal's reasoning is...shaky.

Outcomes aren't the best basis for determining sentencing; Neil Back got a ridiculously light sentence. Had Lander been injured should it have been worse? I would argue not.

My point about Van Zyl was that it was simply a shove. I accept the other aggravating factors - but it was just a shove. Are we to expect higher behavioral standards from spectators than players?

We pride rugby on being a sport apart, with an ethos and culture that should be held up as a gold standard. At least, that's the sport I grew up with. Hands on the referee is inexcusable - quite simply, there are no mitigating factors. At all.

 

[OB..]

My point about Van Zyl was that it was simply a shove.

I could not find a video clip, but my recollection is of a full-bloodied hit in the back.

Not that I think it has any relevance.

 

[Taff]

... Hands on the referee is inexcusable - quite simply, there are no mitigating factors. At all.

I know this is Rugby League (however it's very easy to imagine the exact same thing happen in Rugby Union) but would you feel that the action in the following clip would warrant a life ban?

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Personally, I reckon not. Bollocking? Certainly. YC? Probably. RC? Errrrr .... Possibly? Life Ban? "Oooooo A bit harsh that" as Stuart Davies would say.

 

[Robert Burns]

I always get impressed when members use the board well.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I dont think there should be LE MR TE in physical match abuse cases. Should just be one entry point Life Ban.

Andy - we have to work within the IRB sanctions matrix, and the IRB are the elected body who represent the worldwide game. As with civil and criminal law there have to be checks & balances and a totally transparent system where evidence is heard and a decision made as to guilty / innocent.

If guilty the sentence has to reflect the severity of the offence, with mitigating circumstances taken into account (alongt with character references, past record). I tend to agree with you they should all be Top End and a life ban, but I am a hang em for 1st degree murder kind of guy anyway.

ME 48 weeks (we always ask for playing weeks ban in Hampshire) shows it was a serious offence (beyond an "Eric Morecombe") but not a full blooded assault. No mitigation allowed.

 

[andyscott]

I know this is Rugby League (however it's very easy to imagine the exact same thing happen in Rugby Union) but would you feel that the action in the following clip would warrant a life ban?

If it was going to be a certain life ban, would he have done it in the first place? no probably not

 

[andyscott]

Andy - we have to work within the IRB sanctions matrix, and the IRB are the elected body who represent the worldwide game. As with civil and criminal law there have to be checks & balances and a totally transparent system where evidence is heard and a decision made as to guilty / innocent.

If guilty the sentence has to reflect the severity of the offence, with mitigating circumstances taken into account (alongt with character references, past record). I tend to agree with you they should all be Top End and a life ban, but I am a hang em for 1st degree murder kind of guy anyway.

ME 48 weeks (we always ask for playing weeks ban in Hampshire) shows it was a serious offence (beyond an "Eric Morecombe") but not a full blooded assault. No mitigation allowed.

Of course Simon, the process is in place and the IRB have the overall say. Doesnt mean I have to agree, just abide by

What if a referee assaulted a player? Life ban? well maybe not, but he would never referee a game of rugby again

Well our criminal justice system could be commented on all day, about its political drivers and lack of any backbone unless you are a tax payer that can be fined through the nose. That however is another rant for another day

 

[OB..]

If it was going to be a certain life ban, would he have done it in the first place? no probably not

If a player loses his rag, do you really think he stops to consider such matters?

 

[Simon Thomas]

What if a referee assaulted a player? Life ban? well maybe not, but he would never referee a game of rugby again

I am aware of two cases where a referee physically hit a player.

In both situations the referees were suspended immediately by their Society, pending hearings.

In one case (serious assault with little provocation) the referee resigned shortly after the incident and was found guilty in absentia and banned from all rugby refereeing for life (he was also banned by his County Soccer Refs Association too, based on his rugby pitch incident).

In the other, there had been major provocation by a player, including the first blow. Unfortunately the referee did a lot more than protect himself and injured the player (police action was taken but never got to court). The referee was found guilty of "behaviour un-becoming" and "assaulting a player" - as he had lost all credibility, the Society (and RFU in support) withdrew him from any future Society appointments and both his NFC qualification and CRB clearance was withdrawn by the RFU. He took Coaching Course and has since become a decent 2nd XV coach at his local club.

Neither referee was a Hampshire Society member at any time.

 

[Davet]

Unfortunately the referee did a lot more than protect himself and injured the player

Difficult - if you fail to incapacitate an attacker then they can get another opportunity and may succeed

Lines must be drawn, which is where we get to issues with "reasonable force".

We may not want to go there.

 

[Taff]

Just a quick thought, but does anybody actually check that the guilty party doesn't play for 48 weeks? I assume there's a heavy club sanction if he plays when banned, but I admit I don't know. :chin:

I mean, if they know that Scarlet Al isn't the ref what's stopping him pulling on a jersey, because I doubt the other refs or the opposition would know that he's banned.

 

[PeterH]

Taff
Recent Lancs case
http://clubs.rfu.com/CLUBEVENTS/ViewEventDetails.aspx?id=29240053

 

[PeterH]

this is a refs only forum so
have a peek at this one...

http://clubs.rfu.com/CLUBEVENTS/ViewEventDetails.aspx?id=29240074

 

[dave_clark]

many many years ago, i played a 5th team game at my club which included the 3rd team scrum half who had been sent off the previous week.

rather daftly, the captain had also selected our club chairman who noticed this anomoly.

oops

 

[Phil E]

this is a refs only forum so
have a peek at this one...

http://clubs.rfu.com/CLUBEVENTS/ViewEventDetails.aspx?id=29240074

Looks like S.Riley had an interesting match?

 

[Taff]

Taff. Recent Lancs case
http://clubs.rfu.com/CLUBEVENTS/ViewEventDetails.aspx?id=29240053

What a cracking idea to have a list of suspended players (and associated clubs) on the web. :clap: Wonder if there's one for our District? It'll be interesting to see whose on it.

 

[PeterH]

Looks like S.Riley had an interesting match?

thats the one...ouch
lots of paperwork

 

[Adam]

Looks like S.Riley had an interesting match?

How did he manage to write all those report forms?

 

[PeterH]

Copy and paste?
lol