Scrum half has ball in hand

[scarletman]

Following an incident last weekend, I was looking for some clarification.

At a Ruck, Blue 9 has picked the ball from the ruck but while his hands are only a foot or so away , Red 6 plays the ball from his hands with his foot in a backward motion.

Is this illegal ?

 

[crossref]

so Red #6 has kicked the ball out of Blue #9's hands?

I would give a PK for that, as it's dangerous play.

 

[Daftmedic]

Yes with a little by NO means is that acceptable.

 

[Stephen Elliott]

Slight variation, what if he hasn't picked it up but has a hand on it?

 

[Taff]

Slight variation, what if he hasn't picked it up but has a hand on it?

Still dangerous IMO.

Funnily enough, I've been covering this in my PMB for the last month or so, and it's working well.

 

[Camquin]

If it is a ruck and the ball is on the floor and I am onside I have every right to ruck the ball back and the scrum half had better keep his hands out.
If he puts his hands in he is committing the offense not me and as a flanker I want the referee to let me ruck.

Once the ball is clearly won - we only allow the scrum half to cheat to speed up the game.

Once he has picked the ball up kicking it out of his hands is dangerous play.

However, What I hate is a scrum half sitting at a back of a ruck for an age with hands on wasting time.
Either deem that ball is not out, then either blow for and unsuccessful ruck or penalize the scrum half for hands in the ruck.
Or deem that the ball is out and let the defensive back row loose to tackle the 9 - provided they come from an onside position.
But do not let him sit waiting for the defense to twitch so he buys an undeserved penalty.

Camquin




Camquin

 

[Dickie E]

Slight variation, what if he hasn't picked it up but has a hand on it?

Can you expand on this? Are you asking:

ball rolls out of ruck. As SH is putting his hand on the ball the opposition flanker (who is still in ruck) sticks foot out to kick the ball?

 

[OB..]

However, What I hate is a scrum half sitting at a back of a ruck for an age with hands on wasting time.

For me that is a penalty offence. The first time he does it, tell him to play it, and take the opportunity to warn him when you can.

 

[Daftmedic]

For me that is a penalty offence. The first time he does it, tell him to play it, and take the opportunity to warn him when you can.

Ok ok.. SH hands on the ball. I'm happy *it*can us it. If it delays where is the penalty?

 

[Dickie E]

For me that is a penalty offence.

No its not. Its a turnover scrum. Use it or lose it.

 

[Browner]

If it is a ruck and the ball is on the floor and I am onside I have every right to ruck the ball back and the scrum half had better keep his hands out.
If he puts his hands in he is committing the offense not me and as a flanker I want the referee to let me ruck.

Once the ball is clearly won - we only allow the scrum half to cheat to speed up the game.

Once he has picked the ball up kicking it out of his hands is dangerous play.

However, What I hate is a scrum half sitting at a back of a ruck for an age with hands on wasting time.
Either deem that ball is not out, then either blow for and unsuccessful ruck or penalize the scrum half for hands in the ruck.
Or deem that the ball is out and let the defensive back row loose to tackle the 9 - provided they come from an onside position.
But do not let him sit waiting for the defense to twitch so he buys an undeserved penalty.

Camquin
Camquin

If you joined & remain bound in the ruck legally, feel free to ruck the ball.
If the ball is out - defense can set off.
If the SH is procrastinating, the referee says "Use it" & counts to 5. Not used = scrum.

Liking or disliking is irrelevant.

 

[Rich]

If you joined & remain bound in the ruck legally, feel free to ruck the ball.
If the ball is out - defense can set off.
If the SH is procrastinating, the referee says "Use it" & counts to 5. Not used = scrum.

Liking or disliking is irrelevant.

I'm with him... :biggrin:

however, you mention that the no9 has picked up the ball, in which case the ruck is over and the "kicking" cannot be considered rucking, so I would have to revert to dangerous play, ie PK.

 

[Dixie]

Ok ok.. SH hands on the ball. I'm happy *it*can us it. If it delays where is the penalty?

This is why players ask us time and again: "when is the ball out of the ruck, Sir?". My brief (in my active days) said:

SH, I give you licence to dig for the ball to get it clear of bodies or limbs. I'll give you protection until you get it clear of the last foot, but thereafter you're fair game. BUT if the ball is clear and available, don't touch it until you are ready to distribute.

The SH putting hands on then looking around to consider his options is a) handling in the ruck; and b) gaining an improper advantage in the oppo don't knwo when they can react to his distribution. We need to prevent that sort of abuse, and IMO my brief made my view clear: I want to get the double-digit players involved in the game, but I won't allow the #9 to take the pi$$.

 

[Dickie E]

in the oppo don't knwo when they can react to his distribution.

I just don't get this. They can react when the ball is O_U_T of the ruck. Doesn't get much simpler than that.

 

[OB..]

The SH putting hands on then looking around to consider his options is a) handling in the ruck; and b) gaining an improper advantage in the oppo don't knwo when they can react to his distribution. We need to prevent that sort of abuse, and IMO my brief made my view clear: I want to get the double-digit players involved in the game, but I won't allow the #9 to take the pi$$.

Agreed.

 

[OB..]

If the SH is procrastinating, the referee says "Use it" & counts to 5. Not used = scrum.

If the scrum half does not have his hands on the ball, but the ball is available, then "use it" is correct. However if he is delaying with hands on the ball, he is handling in the ruck. Warning first time, but if he does it again, PK.

 

[Browner]

If the scrum half does not have his hands on the ball, but the ball is available, then "use it" is correct. However if he is delaying with hands on the ball, he is handling in the ruck. Warning first time, but if he does it again, PK.

You can easily end any delaying with "Use it", by definition if you think he's delaying then you must think [LAWS] ... the ball is available to be played [/LAWS].

If he can't play it, then he's not delaying.

 

[OB..]

You can easily end any delaying with "Use it", by definition if you think he's delaying then you must think [LAWS] ... the ball is available to be played [/LAWS].

If he can't play it, then he's not delaying.

I was deliberately distinguishing a scrum half simply taking his time in deciding when to play the ball ("Use it") from the one who puts his hands on the ball and then delays. The latter goes beyond the latitude that we allow. It is therefore the PK offence of handling in the ruck. If he keeps doing it he should certainly be penalised.

 

[Dixie]

I just don't get this. They can react when the ball is O_U_T of the ruck. Doesn't get much simpler than that.

Then why haven't you whistled to penalise the SH for having his hands on a ball that is not yet O_U_T of the ruck, contrary to the very simple law 16.4(b):

[LAWS](b) Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

If the ball is available and the SH dips to handle it, the oppo are primed to react to his action. But if he just ponces about with his hands on the bal while wondering what to do, the oppo either react early, in which case you ping the SH under the very simple 16.4(f):

[LAWS](f) A player must not take any action to make the opposing team think that the ball is out of the ruck while it is still in the ruck.
Sanction: Free Kick[/LAWS]

or they get bored and switch off, giving the SH an andue advantage - in which case you ping him for handling in the ruck.

 

[Dixie]

If the scrum half does not have his hands on the ball, but the ball is available, then "use it" is correct. However if he is delaying with hands on the ball, he is handling in the ruck. Warning first time, but if he does it again, PK.

You can easily end any delaying with "Use it", by definition if you think he's delaying then you must think [LAWS] ... the ball is available to be played [/LAWS].

If he can't play it, then he's not delaying.

But that means you are happy with the SH having his hands on the ball for at least five seconds, and probably for the previous three as well before you issue your "use it" call. Eight seconds is a long time to ask the oppo to remain primed - imagine a starter of a sprint race holding the athletes at SET for 8 seconds - they'd never get invited back, adn there are likely to be some false starts! Those false starts are exactly what the #9 hopes to achieve with this stance, adn we should not get drawn into helping him cheat in this way.