Scrum half has ball in hand

scarletman


Referees in Wales
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
11
Post Likes
0
Following an incident last weekend, I was looking for some clarification.

At a Ruck, Blue 9 has picked the ball from the ruck but while his hands are only a foot or so away , Red 6 plays the ball from his hands with his foot in a backward motion.

Is this illegal ?
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,824
Post Likes
3,161
so Red #6 has kicked the ball out of Blue #9's hands?

I would give a PK for that, as it's dangerous play.
 

Daftmedic


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
1,341
Post Likes
113
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
Yes with a little by NO means is that acceptable.
 

Stephen Elliott

Facebook Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Messages
31
Post Likes
0
Current Referee grade:
Level 9
Slight variation, what if he hasn't picked it up but has a hand on it?
 

Taff


Referees in Wales
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
6,942
Post Likes
383
Slight variation, what if he hasn't picked it up but has a hand on it?
Still dangerous IMO.

Funnily enough, I've been covering this in my PMB for the last month or so, and it's working well.
 

Camquin

Rugby Expert
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
1,653
Post Likes
310
If it is a ruck and the ball is on the floor and I am onside I have every right to ruck the ball back and the scrum half had better keep his hands out.
If he puts his hands in he is committing the offense not me and as a flanker I want the referee to let me ruck.

Once the ball is clearly won - we only allow the scrum half to cheat to speed up the game.

Once he has picked the ball up kicking it out of his hands is dangerous play.

However, What I hate is a scrum half sitting at a back of a ruck for an age with hands on wasting time.
Either deem that ball is not out, then either blow for and unsuccessful ruck or penalize the scrum half for hands in the ruck.
Or deem that the ball is out and let the defensive back row loose to tackle the 9 - provided they come from an onside position.
But do not let him sit waiting for the defense to twitch so he buys an undeserved penalty.

Camquin




Camquin
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,225
Post Likes
2,219
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Slight variation, what if he hasn't picked it up but has a hand on it?

Can you expand on this? Are you asking:

ball rolls out of ruck. As SH is putting his hand on the ball the opposition flanker (who is still in ruck) sticks foot out to kick the ball?
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
However, What I hate is a scrum half sitting at a back of a ruck for an age with hands on wasting time.
For me that is a penalty offence. The first time he does it, tell him to play it, and take the opportunity to warn him when you can.
 

Daftmedic


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
1,341
Post Likes
113
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
For me that is a penalty offence. The first time he does it, tell him to play it, and take the opportunity to warn him when you can.

Ok ok.. SH hands on the ball. I'm happy *it*can us it. If it delays where is the penalty?
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
If it is a ruck and the ball is on the floor and I am onside I have every right to ruck the ball back and the scrum half had better keep his hands out.
If he puts his hands in he is committing the offense not me and as a flanker I want the referee to let me ruck.

Once the ball is clearly won - we only allow the scrum half to cheat to speed up the game.

Once he has picked the ball up kicking it out of his hands is dangerous play.

However, What I hate is a scrum half sitting at a back of a ruck for an age with hands on wasting time.
Either deem that ball is not out, then either blow for and unsuccessful ruck or penalize the scrum half for hands in the ruck.
Or deem that the ball is out and let the defensive back row loose to tackle the 9 - provided they come from an onside position.
But do not let him sit waiting for the defense to twitch so he buys an undeserved penalty.

Camquin
Camquin

If you joined & remain bound in the ruck legally, feel free to ruck the ball.
If the ball is out - defense can set off.
If the SH is procrastinating, the referee says "Use it" & counts to 5. Not used = scrum.

Liking or disliking is irrelevant.
 

Rich


Referees in England
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
99
Post Likes
6
If you joined & remain bound in the ruck legally, feel free to ruck the ball.
If the ball is out - defense can set off.
If the SH is procrastinating, the referee says "Use it" & counts to 5. Not used = scrum.

Liking or disliking is irrelevant.

I'm with him... :biggrin:

however, you mention that the no9 has picked up the ball, in which case the ruck is over and the "kicking" cannot be considered rucking, so I would have to revert to dangerous play, ie PK.
 

Dixie


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
12,773
Post Likes
338
Ok ok.. SH hands on the ball. I'm happy *it*can us it. If it delays where is the penalty?
This is why players ask us time and again: "when is the ball out of the ruck, Sir?". My brief (in my active days) said:

SH, I give you licence to dig for the ball to get it clear of bodies or limbs. I'll give you protection until you get it clear of the last foot, but thereafter you're fair game. BUT if the ball is clear and available, don't touch it until you are ready to distribute.

The SH putting hands on then looking around to consider his options is a) handling in the ruck; and b) gaining an improper advantage in the oppo don't knwo when they can react to his distribution. We need to prevent that sort of abuse, and IMO my brief made my view clear: I want to get the double-digit players involved in the game, but I won't allow the #9 to take the pi$$.
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,225
Post Likes
2,219
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
in the oppo don't knwo when they can react to his distribution.

I just don't get this. They can react when the ball is O_U_T of the ruck. Doesn't get much simpler than that.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
The SH putting hands on then looking around to consider his options is a) handling in the ruck; and b) gaining an improper advantage in the oppo don't knwo when they can react to his distribution. We need to prevent that sort of abuse, and IMO my brief made my view clear: I want to get the double-digit players involved in the game, but I won't allow the #9 to take the pi$$.
Agreed.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
If the SH is procrastinating, the referee says "Use it" & counts to 5. Not used = scrum.
If the scrum half does not have his hands on the ball, but the ball is available, then "use it" is correct. However if he is delaying with hands on the ball, he is handling in the ruck. Warning first time, but if he does it again, PK.
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
If the scrum half does not have his hands on the ball, but the ball is available, then "use it" is correct. However if he is delaying with hands on the ball, he is handling in the ruck. Warning first time, but if he does it again, PK.

You can easily end any delaying with "Use it", by definition if you think he's delaying then you must think [LAWS] ... the ball is available to be played [/LAWS].

If he can't play it, then he's not delaying.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
You can easily end any delaying with "Use it", by definition if you think he's delaying then you must think [LAWS] ... the ball is available to be played [/LAWS].

If he can't play it, then he's not delaying.
I was deliberately distinguishing a scrum half simply taking his time in deciding when to play the ball ("Use it") from the one who puts his hands on the ball and then delays. The latter goes beyond the latitude that we allow. It is therefore the PK offence of handling in the ruck. If he keeps doing it he should certainly be penalised.
 

Dixie


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
12,773
Post Likes
338
I just don't get this. They can react when the ball is O_U_T of the ruck. Doesn't get much simpler than that.
Then why haven't you whistled to penalise the SH for having his hands on a ball that is not yet O_U_T of the ruck, contrary to the very simple law 16.4(b):

[LAWS](b) Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

If the ball is available and the SH dips to handle it, the oppo are primed to react to his action. But if he just ponces about with his hands on the bal while wondering what to do, the oppo either react early, in which case you ping the SH under the very simple 16.4(f):

[LAWS](f) A player must not take any action to make the opposing team think that the ball is out of the ruck while it is still in the ruck.
Sanction: Free Kick[/LAWS]

or they get bored and switch off, giving the SH an andue advantage - in which case you ping him for handling in the ruck.
 

Dixie


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
12,773
Post Likes
338
If the scrum half does not have his hands on the ball, but the ball is available, then "use it" is correct. However if he is delaying with hands on the ball, he is handling in the ruck. Warning first time, but if he does it again, PK.

You can easily end any delaying with "Use it", by definition if you think he's delaying then you must think [LAWS] ... the ball is available to be played [/LAWS].

If he can't play it, then he's not delaying.
But that means you are happy with the SH having his hands on the ball for at least five seconds, and probably for the previous three as well before you issue your "use it" call. Eight seconds is a long time to ask the oppo to remain primed - imagine a starter of a sprint race holding the athletes at SET for 8 seconds - they'd never get invited back, adn there are likely to be some false starts! Those false starts are exactly what the #9 hopes to achieve with this stance, adn we should not get drawn into helping him cheat in this way.
 
Top