Scrum Positioning

[sgoat]

I currently in Australia refereeing. Today I had my second assessment, although they call it coaching here. The coach asked me what I was doing standing on the 'wrong' side of the scrum. He said that the referee should always stand on the scrum-half's side to regulate the put in. He said that I missed a whole lot of crooked feeds (which I disagree with).

Now from all that I have learnt over the last few years refereeing in England is that there is no set position and it doesn't matter which side you stand. He also commented on my walking backwards away from the scrum. I do this to allow myself a greater field of vision over the scrum. However he said that my standing on the 'wrong' side didn't allow me to see the flankers unbinding.

I will get his report sometime this week, but was wondering what other people's thoughts are on where to stand at scrums and what you focus on.

 

[OB..]

It is normal to set the scrum initially from the throw-in side, but you will frequently see referees move to the other side if necessary (to see what is going on there).

If I saw a referee constantly taking the other side, I would ask why.

There are two flankers, one each side. However you can see if they unbind because you can see the relevant arms.

Standard practice again is to start right by the scrum and then back off at an angle.

Much may depend on which is the blind side, rather than the throw-in side.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Interesting.

Standard RFU referee coach and assessor advice and practice at levels 5-99 is to stand 'put in' side to control engagement, stepping back to give S/half room and as you say widen your field of vision for back foot offences by backs, flankers and #8 slipping bind, etc.

Where you have doubts that the engagement sequence or binding are incorrect, or boring-in is happening, or defending flanker that side is slipping his bind (can't see his reasoning that you need to see flanker on put in side) you have two options (or maybe three for PTC)
a) move round fast once ball is in
b) stand 'wrong side' from pre-engagement
c) PTC only - just look over the top of scrum from 6'3" height advantage !

Levels 1-4 is different as there are qualified referee 'panel TJs' to assist in identifying scrum offences.

Crooked feeds are another matter and perhaps he has a point there, if your position prevents you seeing one.

What I always do (and advise) is a clear set of preventative management instructions to set out your stall, and then ping / card as necessary to emaphase things.

 

[Dixie]

I prefer to be on the narrow side, but I have to temper my desire to be there with a recognition that standing on the non-feed side should be the exception. I will mix it up throughout the game, as I do for a line-out, so that I can get a look at all sides. If I have to start on the open side, I try to get to the narrow side as soon as the ball is safely in, to avoid getting tangled up in either the defence efforts to cream the FH, or the attack's efforts to pass (or undertake a back-row move). In my view, this effort to get quickly to the narrow side leads to much less control over the scrum than standing on the narrow side to start with - but I don't have the balls to stick to my convictions.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Some interesting thoughts but a suggestion not to be prescriptive. Manage the situation on the day as best suits and justify accordingly to assessor.

I have noted that Oz refs tend to stand over the scrum longer before stepping aside for the put in. If it isn't steady then they don't step aside, sometimes...

 

[Dickie E]

sgoat, my experience in Aust is in line with Simon's description - where are you located?

Dixie, lots of advantage to being on narrow side. The main disadvantage is you have further to run to the 1st post-scrum breakdown.

 

[sgoat]

I am in Western Australia at the moment. The game was Perth Bayswater Vs Nedlands, 3rd XV.

I have noted that Oz refs tend to stand over the scrum longer before stepping aside for the put in. If it isn't steady then they don't step aside, sometimes...

That was what I was told two weeks ago by another 'coach/assessor'. She reccomended starting the game at the put in side and really controlling the scrum-halves. So that is what I have been doing at the start and that is all good. However I do not like the idea of the referee always being the put in side and constantly delaying the scrum half's feed. Being a front row player I want the ball in as quickly as possible so that I can start pushing properly and get the scrum over with.

I agree with what Simon said in that being 6ft tall I can generally see what is happening with flankers on the the other side of the scrum. Also my changing of position does let the flankers get into a rythmn of where I will be.

The main disadvantage is you have further to run to the 1st post-scrum breakdown.

That is one of my main reasons for sometimes standing on the 'wrong' side if it is the open side. This is especially true with U19 rugby when they very quickly spin the ball wide.

The interesting thing that went with his comments were that he thought my management of the engagement was excellent. He just said that I was useless at everything else at the scrums.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Hope he gave some positive constructive advice as to how you could be better, other than just telling you to stand in a particular position?

Remember that all forwards, particularly front rows, can be assumed to know what they are doing all the time. (They don't but you never let on to that) Tell them that you also know what they are doing - even if you don't.

So. It is "work with me lads, and we will get on fine". If it isn't fine then penalise. No frigging around. "You know what you are doing, get it right or we will be looking to other sanctions".

OK so that is a bit OTT but I support the principle. See too many refs messing around for 30 mins getting the scrum right.

If they do get it right, "There lads, I knew you were only having me on..."

 

[Robert Burns]

Interesting, We have been told that with the new scrum directive we will naturally find ourselves on the non throwing side more often because we can check everything just as well and you can still see the feed.

This is obviously not meaning stay there all the time, but I had the same thing when I went to Middlesbro.

Strange how things get taught differently.

 

[Dickie E]

On the issue of positioning, I'm of the opinion that the best place for the ref to stand at a kick - off is about 12 metres from 1/2 way about centre field. Currently the only breakdown that I am getting to late is the one that results from the kick - off cos I can't get there fast enough.

Any thoughts? :chin:

 

[Mike Whittaker]

The great Clive Norling once told a Hampshire society meeting that for a lower level club game he preferred to stand among the forwards waiting to receive...

When asked about a kick to the other side of the pitch, his reply was, "They wouldn't dare!"

 

[Dixie]

On the issue of positioning, I'm of the opinion that the best place for the ref to stand at a kick - off is about 12 metres from 1/2 way about centre field. Currently the only breakdown that I am getting to late is the one that results from the kick - off cos I can't get there fast enough.

Any thoughts? :chin:

I'll start a new thread for this discussion, which is not a scrum issue

 

[mkottke]

Back to the scrum.

I tend to stand with the scrummies, standing in the middle overlooking the tunnel to make sure the engage is fair and square, then move out of the way to let the scrummy throw. After a couple scrums I tend to stand aside and let the throw come at a quicker pace.
I'm on the other side if the scrum is near the touchline or if something funny is going on with the flankers or blindside props that draws my attention.

A referee coach advised me once that there is no real reason to stand on the opposite side of the scrum, you are going to be over there when the other team knocks anyway.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

It is clear there are 2 distinct approaches...

The "UK" approach appears to be that the ref does not stand in the way of the scrum half waiting to put in at the engagement, even when he is on the putting in side. This enables a very fast put in regardless of the stability of engagement.

What I will call the Oz technique which is to stand directly in the way of the SH until the engagement is steady and then step aside to enable the put in which must then be immediate.

Advantages and disadvantages with both...

UK allows ref to stand anywhere but risks put in when scrum not stable.
Oz ensures stability but restricts ref view.

Seems like a good case to mix and match to suit the game :clap:

 

[ex-lucy]

sgoat, i am with you here, having been a FR i have confidence in my ability to see all matters FR related including not straight put in.
As Mike says, i have no set pattern. I mix it up. I can see not straight from the 'wrong side'. The important thing for me is to show both sets of props that i mix it up. When i was a lucy prop, i could get a way with murder on their ball cos i knew the ref was always on their put in side.
He couldnt give what he couldnt see .... punching the flanker, boring, grabbing and tying in the flanker, nutting the lock, pinching the prop, grabbing his underarm hairs, etc

 

[Mike Whittaker]

sgoat, i am with you here, having been a FR i have confidence in my ability to see all matters FR related including not straight put in.
As Mike says, i have no set pattern. I mix it up. I can see not straight from the 'wrong side'. The important thing for me is to show both sets of props that i mix it up. When i was a lucy prop, i could get a way with murder on their ball cos i knew the ref was always on their put in side.
He couldnt give what he couldnt see .... punching the flanker, boring, grabbing and tying in the flanker, nutting the lock, pinching the prop, grabbing his underarm hairs, etc

Ahhh! The good old days! We had Roger Uttley speaking at our ref's dinner last Friday. He told of many tales such as this with a robust approach to play.

 

[Dickie E]

at some of the levels I do the SHs follows me around when I go to the 'wrong' side

 

[mkottke]

at some of the levels I do the SHs follows me around when I go to the 'wrong' side

It does make for a quick laugh. My favorite is when the opposing SH holds the ball thinking he has the throw.

 

[Davet]

Ex-Lucy - which I why often if YOU get punched, then YOU should be penalised:wink:

As to scrum positioning - I generally, but not always stand on the put-in side just where the tunnel will form, and call the engage from there. As soon as the packs engage - and I am happy - I move back and to the side allowing the SH to put-in. Generally I will head to the back of the scrum, behind the No8 keeping out the line from there to the 10.

In most cases that lets me either follow the the backrow break or SH, or pick up behind the 10 as he comes past me, or move with the direction of play whether blind or open.

Once or twice a game I will vary it - coming round to the non-input side.

If there are experioenced player at 9 then i tend to want to keep a very close on them - the sods are upto all sorts. Main flash point is the feeding 9 who doesn't follow the ball back, keeping both feet in front of the ball, and obstructs his opposite 9 and the flanker from getting to his 8. The other is when he does the same thing, but carefully keeps 1 foot on-side - and his oppo then starts shoving and pushing.

 

[sgoat]

I have finally received my report on the game in question so thought I would share some of the comments:

"Your scrum engagements were consistantly good throughout the game, but why you positioned yourslf on the non feeding side eludes me. It was only in the last five minutes you gave a penalty for not straight in the scrum, when of the 19 scrums in the game you could/should have penalised 12-15 on that critera"

I happen to disagree with the 12-15 feeds but anyway!

This comment doesnt really tally though with the comment I received two weeks previously

"Although there were no scrum incidents, your scrums looked consistently 'wobbly'. Consider the stability of the scrum before the ball is put in as your starting point for safe and effective scrums. Therefore make sure you control that area of the scrum (i.e. make sure you manage the half backs - don't let them get to the scrum until you are happy). It appeared the Nedlands team pushed straight from engagement with the scrum half feeding the ball immediately after engagement, this destabilised the less able Wanneroo scrum and gave them no chance to prepare to push."

The coach in this game suggested that to improve I should start on the feeding side for the first few scrums, but after that I was free to do as I pleased.

I think however that things have cleared up for me after I got assessed again this weekend and I got this in the report:

"Current ARU scrum practice is to maintain a position on the feed side with halfbacks on either side of you, only going to the far side if there is a management issue, although the occasional random appearance will keep them honest provided it's not at the expense of the loose-head (non-infringing team) side."

So I understand now that there are two different approaches to managing the scrum, with the Southern Hemisphere very much favouring taking control of the half-backs. Now that I know that I will know how to please the coaches!!