Scrum sequence change coming?

[Ciaran Trainor]

The folding in scrum is basically what happens at level 8 and below in my experience an the y rarely collapse.
Good scrummaging bteams can take the ball against the head and we do have a contest. bring it on

 

[Casey Bee]

The folding in scrum is basically what happens at level 8 and below in my experience an the y rarely collapse.
Good scrummaging bteams can take the ball against the head and we do have a contest. bring it on

Not complaining but don't understand what you are saying?!
I find at my level games - less able players (and ref!) there are't so many shenanigans at scrum time as they haven't got sophisticated enough for a lot of trickery and sneaky practice, very very rarely have collapses. They just tend to have a shove (non put in hooker often competes) and each game we usually see a small percentage of scrums taken against the head. Maybe I've got misty eyed, but are we seeing more 'true' rugby at this level because all the trickery hasn't been introduced?

 

[OB..]

each game we usually see a small percentage of scrums taken against the head.

Really? I find them to be very rare - and usually a consequence of inadvertently kicking the ball to the opposition or pushing them off it, rather than out-striking the opponent.

 

[andyscott]

Well todays game, U18 DM Cup, two pretty good 'rugby' schools.

Number of scrum resets? None, thats right, none, so whats wrong with the LOTG? These teams didnt have a problem.

1FK 1st scrum, early engage
1FK 1st scrum in 2nd half, early engage.
1FK about midway into the 2nd half, early drive.

So I have to ask the question, if these players grasp the LOTG, why dont elite players (well 1 prop was a U18 international )? Simple, because they dont want to

 

[dave_clark]

Really? I find them to be very rare - and usually a consequence of inadvertently kicking the ball to the opposition or pushing them off it, rather than out-striking the opponent.

when i played i used to strike for every opposition put in, and they would frequently strike against me. if there wasn't at least one taken against the head per match it was a surprise.

this was close on 10 years ago, so i accept that things may be different now

 

[Casey Bee]

Really? I find them to be very rare - and usually a consequence of inadvertently kicking the ball to the opposition or pushing them off it, rather than out-striking the opponent.

Some, you are right though, an all out drive is more usual winner. Thing is I am talking about rugby where general level is schoolboy sort of thinking. So striking on opponent put in is seen as normal. On another thread (exploding the myth) Phil E said he told SH that he can't legally get in the pocket so don't go there. Again, games I ref, the scrum players of put in team have not been drilled how to protect ball from defending SH, so defending SH can get in the pocket legally. I'm there to referee, not tell them how they should be playing... so I'm seeing things that don't occur at higher levels, and have to referee the game in front of me, not referee as if I'm dealing with sophisticated teams who know what they are doing.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Whether we like it or not the SH teams will make us all go to league passive scrums. Its gonna happen.

Rubbish!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5014162.stm

James Bourke, consultant general surgeon at Queen's Medical Centre in Nottingham has called for the ban after seeing young players paralysed during his 30-year stint as honorary medical officer to Nottingham Rugby Football Club.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/aug/30/rugbyunion.sport

A working party set up by the Rugby Football Union is considering whether to recommend to the International Rugby Board that scrums should be uncontested. The working party was set up after the Leicester prop Matt Hampson suffered a serious neck injury last year while training with the England Under-21s.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10501327

Professor Allyson Pollock, director of Edinburgh University's Centre for International Public Health Policy, called for the ban after research into child injuries.

These places and people are NOT in the SH, they are from your neck of the woods, so before you go shooting your mouth off blaming us down south for all the scrum problems, you just might want to take a long hard look in YOUR OWN BACK YARD!!!!

 

[Rambles]

plenty of dodgy / dangerous stuff can go between the members of the front row union even when the binding looks good and the platform is square.
I have seen front rows boring in, hookers swinging and dipping, and flankers (remember Neil Back ?) trying to win the ball with their hands .........

I have always advocated the "pause" is dangerous and contributes to neck and shoulder injuries. Why? Because it gives front rows extra time to coil up like a spring and increase the power of the hit. And when the timing becomes uncertain by varying the length of the pause then the hit on a front row not expecting the hit (e.g. because the pause was of shorter duration then it had been up to that point in a match) has an increased chance of being hurt.

And some teams developed tactics - e.g. the All Blacks - to position themselves better in the time during the pause - e.g. the All Blacks front row lifted themselves slightly so they had more energy from the height - to increase the power of the hit.

The RFU have been conned by the teams. Remember Crouch and hold, engage ! It was never Crouch and hold, hit !

Get the front rows close enough together, and the lunging hit will stop.....

 

[RickMN]

Having spent 30 odd years playing in the front row, current referee and scrum coach there are one or two comments I would like to make.

There is no real problem with the CTPE system. It is largely down to technique (or rather the lack of it) of the front row forwards.

Before the engage the front row needs to be stable - not only froma safety point of view, but if you want to hit properly you need to be stable. Too many FR forwards rely on strength rather than technique.

Follow the basics - feet set correctly - hips - shoulders & head (the old coaching of having the head tilted back is redundant the head should be level - peering over the topof sun glasses is a good analogy). If the basics are right the scrum will not be an issue - unfortunately there are too many clubs with forwards coaches and not a specialist scrum coach - YOU NEED A SPECIALIST!!

As a referee I look at the set up of feet - hips shoulders & head in the first instance. This gives a real indication of who is likely to cause problems.

On the crouch, the props must support their own weight. If they are "hanging over the cliff" (being held back by their locks) then the chances are that on the engage their head will be heading towards the ground.

I could go on for hours - referee societies must recognise that scrummaging is perhaps the most technical part of the game and utilise any exerience at meetings or call in specialist coaches to enlighten those not fortunate enough to have played in the front row.

 

[RickMN]

Oh one other point - folding in would be a recipe for disaster - body positions in the wrong place then the weight coming on - back to the bad old days of neck injuries from scrummaging!!

 

[Dixie]

RickMN - a very warm welcome to the forum.

As one of those scrum non-specialists, I'm always delighted when another specialist joins to share his/her accumulated experience of this immensely difficult area.

As a referee I look at the set up of feet - hips shoulders & head in the first instance. This gives a real indication of who is likely to cause problems.

So what are the factors you are looking for? What little give-aways alert you to the potential for grief, and give you a clue as to whom to penalise?

If the basics are right the scrum will not be an issue - unfortunately there are too many clubs with forwards coaches and not a specialist scrum coach - YOU NEED A SPECIALIST!!

If it's this hard to coach (even for a guy who packed down under his coach's eye several tens of times a week at training and in games), is it also the case that you need an ex-scrummager to referee it properly? Or is it possible to give a non-specialist ref a simple checklist of things to look for?

 

[RickMN]

Where do I begin.

Basics I suppose.

On the set up.
Feet - shoulder width - maybe a little more (but not much), parallel to the goal line.

With hips & shoulders in line with the feet the engage should be straight.

Head - not tipped back - should be a fairly staight line running from the spine to the neck. If the head is tilted back then the player will "duck" into the engage and will be heading to the ground.

Front row stable & supporting their own weight. Again if they are "hanging over the cliff" and being held back by the locks on the engage they tend to go to ground (Springboks & SA Super 14(15) sides tend to do this).


If the set up is right the front row do not need to make any adjustments to their feet & body position. If a prop is adjusting his feet position it is usuallt an indication that he did not get it right on the engage and in unconmfortable with his position.

Then it's just the binding!!!!!! Props will be looking for an edge and this is a good opportunity.

Once the weight comes on look at body angles.

There is a lot more but we aren't omnipotent (contrary to popular belief).

Get the basic set up right and we giuve ourselves a chance of having acceptable scrums.

 

[Dickie E]

Oh one other point - folding in would be a recipe for disaster - body positions in the wrong place then the weight coming on - back to the bad old days of neck injuries from scrummaging!!

Disagree. Body position will certainly be more correct when engaging s-l-o-w-l-y than in the current ready-set-go environment.

Refer my previous re. bench pressing.

 

[ckuxmann]

What do you mean by head-not tipped back

I'm trying to picture this and just can't.

Thanks
Cody

 

[Rit Hinners]

I believe he means, as if they are looking up.

That would elevate the back of the head and require the duck he describes on engagement.

 

[L'irlandais]

For the many scrum non-specialists like myself I think it's best to keep it simple & there-by safe.

 

[RickMN]

Disagree. Body position will certainly be more correct when engaging s-l-o-w-l-y than in the current ready-set-go environment.

Refer my previous re. bench pressing.

Folding in will almost certainly lead to adjusting the body position and/or incorrect alignment when the weight comes in. I supose we could always totally depower the scrum = som countries/teams would prefer that option!

 

[Dickie E]

Folding in will almost certainly lead to adjusting the body position and/or incorrect alignment when the weight comes in.

I don't see that. Placing the dart in the bullseye is a lot easier than throwing it from a distance.

I supose we could always totally depower the scrum = som countries/teams would prefer that option!

I suppose we could except no-one is suggesting that

 

[ddjamo]

appreciate your input MN...but confused. if technique is the answer - why is it that the issues are mainly at the top? community level we will go a full match with maybe one slip and maybe one early. I think we here on the board have confirmed the issues are not at our level but at the tv product level. that can't be technique?

 

[RickMN]

appreciate your input MN...but confused. if technique is the answer - why is it that the issues are mainly at the top? community level we will go a full match with maybe one slip and maybe one early. I think we here on the board have confirmed the issues are not at our level but at the tv product level. that can't be technique?

Very good point. I think the number of scrum resets that we get + penalties at scrum can be a good indication of our success.

At the higher level - the various nations have very different ideas regarding what is good technique and how to establish dominance.

In the SH I believe that only NZ scrummage correctly although Argentina are close (incidently I am not a Kiwi).

The NH is very difficult Wales & England are dominant but have poor general technique -(look closely at Adam Jones' body position and Sheridan's foot shuffle after the engage!!). Very few NH scrums engage with all 8 which causes the early push/not taking the hit issue.

Perhaps this is one area where there will be no solution in the near future!!