[Tackle] Second tackle offence by a player whilst playing advantage

[Flish]

Background is U15s game today, local derby, lots of off the ball niggle, two chats and warning at half time, and a yellow card for a late tackle by Red 15 mins into second half, a penalty on it's own merit but cumulative and teams been warned.

3 mins to play, Blue winning by near 50 points, and Blue 13 commits a tip tackle, no drive, not malicious, just one of those ones that's beyond the horizontal, yellow card, am playing advantage. In the next phase whilst still under under advantage Blue 13 again hits a player late (similar to what red was binned for earlier), immediately blow up as two in a row and worried this could escalate (thankfully didn't).

I went with yellow only (3 minutes to go, game already over) and a strong warning that it was a daft thing to do and could have been worse. Game ended with no more bother. However, was a new scenario to me, if I felt that both offences merited yellow could I have awarded two, and thus red, even though sanction for the first hadn't been given. Was I right I guess? If it had been 20 mins earlier would I still be right (arguable shouldn't matter, but this is youth rugby still).

TIA

 

[didds]

I suppose the answer is - if the 2nd YC offence hadn't occurred, would you have YCd him at the next dead ball ?

If yes, then I can see that it should be 2 x YC = RC. Because had the first offense happened 20 minutes earlier it would have been a YC under the belt already - unless you bottled the second YC to prevent the RC I suppose (maybe "bottled" is the wrong word here!)

However.,.. I do also see the point about it being a meaningless card- and with 3 minutes to go a YC is as "effective" in terms of the game.

I can also see the point that this is U15 and the start of testosterone so maybe an early lesson is due....

I think I;d say that either "answer" is correct. Though if "only" the one YC maybe a bit of a stern chat at its issue about what COULD have happened, and to consider his future actions?

didds

 

[Christy]

Hi flish .
For me as its a youth game .
We have strong guide lines on foul play & playing advantage .

Basically we are told , advantage should never be played for acts of foul play . ( i dont mean off side stuff )
Unless it is an immediate try scoring opportunity & its very safe to do so . ( as in very safe )

So red tipp tackle , if you had blown up straight away , it could of been dealt with straight away .
Player safety is all that counts here .
Talk to offender , if your happy it was not a deliberate tipp tackle , and it was evident tackler even tried to prevent a dangerous out come , let him know , penalty only on this occasion ( it sound like he didnt land akward on his head or neck ) , but let offender know its his responsibility to tackle safely .

If you felt it was a yellow card , the out come would needed to of been a higher level of danger to tackled player ( as in how did he land , was he dropped on back or side ? ) . So again . Player safety is all that counts . Blow whistle and dont worry about non offending team not getting an immediate advantage .

As for dealing 2 yellow cards in 1 set of play , from playing advantage . I think this would be a tough sell and its not something ive come across before .
You can have multiple penalties from same play , as in off side at multiple rucks . And ref awarding new advantage
Opposition can now choose which penalty spot suits them best to take penalty kick .
You could yellow card the last offending player for same & advise captain too many penalties in last phase of play . But again you wouldnt put more than 1 player in bin ,,

 

[beckett50]

Hi Fish,

Good question and one that affects all levels and age groups.

In your preamble you do state that there was lots going on off the ball and that you had "2 chats and a warning at half-time"

A tip tackle is always going to be a flash point in any game, and especially one where the tempers are already bubbling under the surface. Make your life easy and don't look to play advantage is such a situation - even if you are only 3 minutes from time.

Good learning experience and - FWIW - we have all been there with that one.

 

[crossref]

I'd echo the same advice , in youth games don't play advantage after foul play , especially if it's YC worthy , blow quick and card

From your description of the nature of the game I would also ask if , looking back, was not any opportunity to get a YC out in the first half, just to cool things down and to stamp some authority

 

[Flish]

Good point ref not playing advantage, far better to prevent a scenario than deal with it. First game where i’ve Had to really manage niggle and escalate through the sanctions. All good learning.

He did get a good talking too though, explained that another ref, another day, another colour etc. And to his credit he apologised after the game

 

[Flish]

From your description of the nature of the game I would also ask if , looking back, was not any opportunity to get a YC out in the first half, just to cool things down and to stamp some authority

As the first half closed out the intensity died down a bit so there was nothing of real significance to justify it. Had another chat with both teams at half time and hoped that was it. I felt that if i’d Carded earlier I was creating a rod for my own back, I think I was mostly right as it ended with just a yellow each

 

[Dickie E]

Good question and one that affects all levels and age groups.

But what is the answer? If we take out the age group consideration and look for a general answer, for me:

1. if the 1st offence is dangerous play and worthy of a YC and the 2nd offence is dangerous play and worthy of a YC, then that is a RC.

2. if the 1st offence is not dangerous play and worthy of a YC (eg repeat infringement) and the 2nd offence is not dangerous play and worthy of a YC, then that is a YC.

3. if one of the offences is dangerous play and worthy of a YC and the other is not dangerous play and worthy of a YC, then that is a YC.

I take the point that if a player commits 2 acts of dangerous play within a short period of time then he is probably suffering from the red mist, and the referee should be alert to the signs.

 

[crossref]

I think that the point of 2YC =RC is that after the first card you are on a warning ... So don't get another one

So in the sort of scenario above I don't think it does make a RC ... because he never got the warning

 

[chbg]

As the first half closed out the intensity died down a bit so there was nothing of real significance to justify it. Had another chat with both teams at half time and hoped that was it. I felt that if i’d Carded earlier I was creating a rod for my own back, I think I was mostly right as it ended with just a yellow each

Why is a YC a 'rod for your own back'? As one who is (probably too) reticent to draw cards, I know that a niggly game requires firm management. It is far better to be safe than sorry, especially early in your career. Later on you will have a better feel for the effect of a card. It's quite surprising how easily a player's can alter his actions after being penalised.

Other than endorsing others' comments about reacting immediately to Foul Play (if you are quick enough on the draw, the whistle is blown as an automatic reaction almost before the tip tackle is completed), I just do not see how two actions that you consider worthy of a YC in the same passage of play could possibly result in a RC. The player cannot know that he has just been awarded a YC if you don't tell him, so he has no chance to adjust his play. I would not consider it to be like two speeding offences in the same journey! If the first YC is a bright (= definite) Yellow, then you should be stopping play there and then. However, two dull (possible/probable) Yellows could legitimately combine to be one definite Yellow if that is what the game requires.

 

[Pegleg]

Is Under 15 classed as youth in England (It is not here in Wales although it is played to youth laws) I know you have variations to U19 laws for your U15s.

However, you describe a niggly game.

So, the advise above from Becket50 & CrossRef is vital. Playing advantage at youth and below is not advisable following foul play.

EVEN if the rest of the game has been good natured. Exceptions may be if a try is going to be scored immediately. The frustration of being denied the score could itself provoke a flare up. Whereas a try might calm a few hot heads down! However, such an exception will be VERY VERY rare indeed.

If the game is a bad tempered one then you really need to be pahying full attention to any flashpoint areas and that means NO advatage.

Further CrossRef's point about an earlier card is a good one. Omly you will know, but ask yourself: "Should a card have been produced earlier to quieten the tone of the game?"

Start strict and ease up rather than the other way around.

 

[Dickie E]

I think that the point of 2YC =RC is that after the first card you are on a warning ... So don't get another one

So in the sort of scenario above I don't think it does make a RC ... because he never got the warning

you make a fair point. Perhaps I'd be more inclined then to go for a straight red without the 2 YCs. After all, he has committed a series of dangerous actions in a short space of time. All of a sudden, accidental or reckless are making way for deliberate.

 

[Pegleg]

... I think I was mostly right as it ended with just a yellow each

That does not always follow. "Getting it right" Might mean 2 reds and a yellow to ONE side only.

 

[Pegleg]

I think that the point of 2YC =RC is that after the first card you are on a warning ... So don't get another one

So in the sort of scenario above I don't think it does make a RC ... because he never got the warning

I disagree. The player committed two yellow card offences that's good enough for me. You do not have to be "on a warning". to get a red. That is soley dependent on what you ( the player) do.

 

[crossref]

you make a fair point. Perhaps I'd be more inclined then to go for a straight red without the 2 YCs. After all, he has committed a series of dangerous actions in a short space of time. All of a sudden, accidental or reckless are making way for deliberate.

I agree that in some circumstances a RC would be justified , but this would all depend on exactly what he did

 

[Flish]

Lots's to think on here, thanks all, point taken about carding early, am struggling to think of an incident after the initial chat with captains that I could have used for that opportunity, but suspect with this experience under my belt I'll see things differently. Like I said, first time I've had to manage niggle like this

 

[crossref]

Another thing to take comfort from .. youth games are actually hard. Coming through as a club ref with experience of reffing some u17 and u18 games at my club (friendlies) when I joined the society I was surprised to find that those games were graded way above my level... I was assigned to much easier adult games.

 

[Flish]

Another thing to take comfort from .. youth games are actually hard. Coming through as a club ref with experience of reffing some u17 and u18 games at my club (friendlies) when I joined the society I was surprised to find that those games were graded way above my level... I was assigned to much easier adult games.

I actually had a U18 game the other week, technically above my level I think, but purely because I was onsite at that venue anyway with my U11 squad that I coach. And it was probably the most enjoyable game I've done, I found positioning much easier to get right (or not be in the way) as they were more predictable, and secured the ball a lot better. Yesterday I found myself on the back foot offside line more than I probably should.

Am shortly available on Saturdays so suspect (hope) I'll get some more senior games.

 

[ChrisR]

I see YCs as serving two purposes. First as a deterrent to foul play and repeated offences and secondly to give the miscreant time to cool off and consider the error of his ways.

If, in a single passage of play, a player commits two offences worthy of a YC, but neither is a RC, then he needs the meditation time. I don't think, here, Y+Y=R works to what I see is the purpose of the YC.

 

[Rich_NL]

Another thing to take comfort from .. youth games are actually hard. Coming through as a club ref with experience of reffing some u17 and u18 games at my club (friendlies) when I joined the society I was surprised to find that those games were graded way above my level... I was assigned to much easier adult games.

Absolutely! Older teens have a lot of energy, are as fast as adults and there's often a lot of testosterone floating around developing brains that can make management harder.