Sharks vs. Irish - calling lineout numbers

[Volun-selected]

Watching today's Sale Sharks vs. London Irish match - about 52:30 in Sale have a lineout which the ref (Karl Dickson) stops. He then says "Ten! One person said 6, one said 5. 5 man. 5. Time to adjust..." Both teams then set up and get on with it.

I'm assuming that the problem was that one team had stated a specific number of players to be involved but were inconsistent, and this was just good game management for when a team does decide to share a number but just wanted to check that there isn't some UK/Premiership expectation that teams must declare a number.

 

[crossref]

In England there is generally an expectation that teams will communicate a number
No doubt that extends to the premiership

I know it doesn't happen in other countries

 

[Volun-selected]

I know it doesn't happen in other countries

My assumption was wrong then, glad I asked.

I’m in one of those places that doesn’t. The USAR guidelines specifically call out that teams don’t have to communicate a number, but many teams here do regardless (and I’m very happy when they do - just makes it all a little easier at the setup).

 

[SimonSmith]

In England there is generally an expectation that teams will communicate a number
No doubt that extends to the premiership

I know it doesn't happen in other countries

Amy Barrett got the teams to do it last week in the NZ/Aus game

 

[Dickie E]

Amy Barrett got the teams to do it last week in the NZ/Aus game

Interesting. I'm not aware of any requirement for teams to declare numbers at an international level. I wonder what the sanction would be for declining to do so. Would it be dissent?

 

[crossref]

Interesting. I'm not aware of any requirement for teams to declare numbers at an international level. I wonder what the sanction would be for declining to do so. Would it be dissent?

In England grass roots rugby, the sanction for refusing to announce numbers is that everyone thinks you are behaving like a dick

 

[Phil E]

There is no requirement to announce numbers.

There used to be a requirement to allow the other team time to adjust their numbers, so as to not have more than the throwing team (who determine the maximum number in the lineout), but this adjustment requirement was removed from the laws, which now just say you can't have more. Most ref's just manage it.

Having said that announcing the numbers allows both teams to have legal lineouts quickly (numbers wise), which allows the game to get going quicker. Thats a good thing as far as I am aware.

 

[Stu10]

There is no requirement to announce numbers.

There used to be a requirement to allow the other team time to adjust their numbers, so as to not have more than the throwing team (who determine the maximum number in the lineout), but this adjustment requirement was removed from the laws, which now just say you can't have more. Most ref's just manage it.

Having said that announcing the numbers allows both teams to have legal lineouts quickly (numbers wise), which allows the game to get going quicker. Thats a good thing as far as I am aware.

However, if the defending team does not have time to adjust their numbers because the throw is taken as soon as the lineout is formed, then play on:

Law 18.14. Unless the throw is taken as soon as the lineout is formed, the non-throwing team may not have more players (but may have fewer players) in the lineout than the throwing team. Sanction: Free-kick.

 

[crossref]

Q for those of you in other countries, where announcing numbers is not customary - do you get many FKs for wrong numbers? Or is it the case that defending teams are switched on ---- because they have to be ---- and manage to quickly count and match?

Indeed , is one of the forwards actually assigned the job of counting and matching ?

 

[Dickie E]

Q for those of you in other countries, where announcing numbers is not customary - do you get many FKs for wrong numbers? Or is it the case that defending teams are switched on ---- because they have to be ---- and manage to quickly count and match?

Indeed , is one of the forwards actually assigned the job of counting and matching ?

It's a dog's breakfast in many games I ref. I often have to alert teams to a numbers issue. Often teams think they have to match numbers (not just have no more).
I think your system is admirable

 

[crossref]

I am surprised teams don't have less.
In my game at the weekend one team's strategy was that they very rarely contested any throw. Preferring instead to remain alert and ready to maul, attack the 9, chase the 10, what ever was needed. With that strategy - not needing any lifters - I might well consider also deploying those unnedeed lifters as an extra player or two in the defensive line.

 

[Volun-selected]

Q for those of you in other countries, where announcing numbers is not customary - do you get many FKs for wrong numbers? Or is it the case that defending teams are switched on ---- because they have to be ---- and manage to quickly count and match?

Indeed , is one of the forwards actually assigned the job of counting and matching ?

I only ref in the lower leagues (U14 and up through adult) and the team throwing in will pretty much always shout loudly to their team the number they want and most time it’s just “full” since all the forwards want to come and play. If they don’t, then the other team will ask “how many?” or just “numbers?” and the throwing team oblige.

For the reasons @Phil E mentioned around it just making things move faster, I remain neutral and neither call out they don’t have to, nor ask for numbers. (If it happens and the non-throwing team protest I would confirm/enforce the law but I’m not going to encourage it either way).

 

[didds]

I am surprised teams don't have less.
In my game at the weekend one team's strategy was that they very rarely contested any throw. Preferring instead to remain alert and ready to maul, attack the 9, chase the 10, what ever was needed. With that strategy - not needing any lifters - I might well consider also deploying those unnedeed lifters as an extra player or two in the defensive line.

... though of course using them as tail gunners brings them 10m closer to the attackers ...
at elast in the closer channels.

CR's idea certainly has merit in the wider channels where "in front" may mean "closer" than a cross field diagonal run.

 

[crossref]

... though of course using them as tail gunners brings them 10m closer to the attackers ...
at elast in the closer channels.

CR's idea certainly has merit in the wider channels where "in front" may mean "closer" than a cross field diagonal run.

yes - and definitely field position would play a part here as well -

 

[Dickie E]

I remember reffing a game where a team had a call of "all in" which meant form with 1 fewer. Dicking around with numbers is seen as a legitimate tactic to win a FK

 

[Decorily]

I remember reffing a game where a team had a call of "all in" which meant form with 1 fewer. Dicking around with numbers is seen as a legitimate tactic to win a FK

I'm guessing they never got the FK from you!!

 

[Dickie E]

I'm guessing they never got the FK from you!!

Yeah, I told them to change their call or they'd cop a penalty for "bringing the game into disrepute" or some such

 

[Ian_Cook]

Q for those of you in other countries, where announcing numbers is not customary - do you get many FKs for wrong numbers? Or is it the case that defending teams are switched on ---- because they have to be ---- and manage to quickly count and match?

Indeed , is one of the forwards actually assigned the job of counting and matching ?

Nope. Calling numbers here doesn't happen at any level. I watched a lot of the NPC this year, but I do not recall any "numbers: FKs

I remember reffing a game where a team had a call of "all in" which meant form with 1 fewer. Dicking around with numbers is seen as a legitimate tactic to win a FK

In such a case, where the team is being wankers with number calling, like your case, or making any call I think is made with intent to mislead the opposition regards the number of players, I would just play on even if the opponents have one extra in the lineout. If they complain, my answer would be "you said six - if you choose to have only five that's on you".

As Sir Humphrey Appleby used to say to Sir Frank Gordon ... "That's YP!"

 

[Stu10]

Interesting one today... U16 game, maroon had the throw but slow to get sorted, green asked for confirmation on numbers because it wasn't clear, then green coach shouted, "don't worry about numbers, they haven't declared how many, so we're allowed to have any number"

 

[Decorily]

"LET HIM UP"