Sledging based on Sexuality

[andyscott]

is Manchester considered to be a gay village nowadays?

Not sure but I can think of plenty of other names for it

 

[Bungle]

I have known the Steelers for a long time, reffed them a few times when I was starting out with the whistle and have even played for them when they were short - and not once was there any kind of abuse you fear. There have been incidents in the past with one particular team but they are known throughout Essex for their 'ungentlemanly' approach to all other teams, gay, straight, black, white, ugly, pretty (not many of those in Essex...)

One incident does spring to mind which was rather ironic. The Steelers were playing that Manchester side (that orange kit was so ugly it sticks in the mind) and the only bit of abuse was between two long-playing straight guys - one on each side, winding each other up using the usual banter. It never occured to either of them that the other bloke might be gay. It got so bad that in the tunnel at the end there was fisticuffs between them. Suffice it to say the gay members of the team looked on with bemusement...

Everything Big J says about their warm welcome, friendly banter and good spirit I can endorse. Indeed, I have been requested to do a friendly for them next month and I have even got myself a London pink shirt for the occasion. I know they will enjoy it...

One thing about gay rugby per se (and as other have said no club is strict about 'gays only', they will welcome all players so long as they are comfortable with the ethos) is that it does offer people who would have liked to learn to play rugby earlier in life a second chance to have a go. Many players I spoke to have a love of the game but never felt confident enough at school or to get involved in a local club. They appreciated that a club would offer skills training from scratch and a gentle introduction with appropriate games. This means their 2nd and 3rd XVs often get trounced by more experienced sides but I know of many players who have come a long way, hold their own in County League rugby, feel involved in the game and contribute a lot to our rugby family.

 

[OB..]

We've all been there, and there is no such thing as a silly question.

On that basis, it seems reasonable for andy to ask about the possibilities inherent in a situation he was not familiar with. He now has some (fairly firm!) answers. I am puzzled that some people seem to think he should not have asked.

 

[dave_clark]

There have been incidents in the past with one particular team but they are known throughout Essex for their 'ungentlemanly' approach to all other teams, gay, straight, black, white, ugly, pretty (not many of those in Essex...)

is that a dog i hear?

 

[Jacob Mayer]

Stumbled across this thread and thought I'd chime in as an "insider".

The Phoenix Storm are an inclusive, primarily gay team. We compete at the associate level in the Arizona Rugby Union, and we're also members of IGRAB, the international board which oversees gay rugby.

I've only seen what I'd call objectionable behavior on one or two occasions, and in each case, a nice firm tackle usually corrected the perception.

We're certainly not the best team in our union, but as some have alluded, we do throw the best third half in the state!

For those that don't know, or are curious, IGRAB has about 40+ member clubs from North America, Europe, and Australia. Many field two or more full sides, and a several are competitive at the division level within their union. We get together every two years for the Bingham Cup (named after Mark Bingham, one of the men who tried to take back Flt. 93 on 9/11/01) to compete in what I'm told is the largest amateur rugby event in the world (others will have to confirm that) with about 800+ players converging in Dublin last June.

I appreciate the comments here, and as a newbie to the forums will sit down and be quiet now whilst absorbing more wisdom from the rest of you... :Zip:

Best Regards,

Jacob Mayer

 

[Phil E]

Jacob

Welcome to Rugby Refs and I hope you feel you can join in the discussions. We all learn something, no matter what our level, from every discussion, even if we don't all agree.

Dublin eh? That must be one hell of a party :biggrin: :bday:

 

[andyscott]

Jacob, thanks for your input.

It was an interesting challenge, that in the end, didnt come to anything. The game was cancelled due to lack of numbers.

Andy

 

[ExHookah]

Jacob,

I refereed at the Bingham in NY a couple of years ago, and it was fantastic. Honestly the only downside to the event was that at that point in time the pitches on Randalls Island in NY were absolutely shocking. (now after millions in investment the rugby pitches on Randalls are fantastic)

The tournament was without a doubt the best organized I've seen, and this was with three divisions of teams. There were tents for all teams to serve as locker rooms, and the final of the cup division was watched by a crowd of 1,800 very loud fans and players.

The hosting club had arranged a ton of media coverage, a massive amount of sponsorship, and some huge parties in Manhattan. The next time the Gotham Knights are hosting the tournament I will be happy to referee it again.

 

[Jacob Mayer]

The next Bingham Cup is about 3 weeks out; in Minneapolis this year at the National Sports Center. Attendance is expected to be down a bit, but still nearly 600 players from what I've heard.

2012 should take us back to London or to Sydney. Woohoo!

 

[Mich the Blind Side]

There are always somethings that will affect a player. I had a schools derby game where a lad had lost his mum recently and an opponent who knew situation provoked him with a "your mother" joke making the 13 year old cry. I had him replaced for remainder of the game whereas if he made it normally I probably would have given him a warning. Spoke to coach after game and the young fella apologised to him privately after the game.

Banter is well and good and you dont want to single out a player who might already be uncomfotable but I take a strict line to on-pitch bullying.

Personally I don't think homophobic comments should be tolerated at all. To me they are on a par with racist comments and should be treated the same. Everyone has a right to play this sport and I believes that referees are one of the pillars that protect that right. If I heard it on the pitch I'd RC it. If I heard one of my young players use it they would be given a severe talking to and a repeat would mean they would be looking for another club.

Yep, somewhere there’s a difference between banter and bullying; in Donal’s case it’s clearly bullying and he’s right to take a strict line. Especially with kids, the ref has an even greater duty of care to the players; see it as a sort of parental role on the pitch.

But it’s difficult to draw a really clear line. Fran Cotton’s exhortation to the players of the North during the All Blacks haka; ‘look at those big poofs dancing’ can’t really be taken as a reference to gay players; it’s a bit of a taunt to call the opposition soft. I’ve told my players to ‘flatten that big girl’s blouse’ in the past, while not giving a stuff about the sexuality of the player concerned; am I then being homophobic? Someone deliberately hurling insults at a player who is known to be gay is a different matter, and that’s where I find myself in agreement with Staybound; it’s essential to demonstrate that rugby has grown up and developed beyond the traditional demographic and is truly open to anybody who wants to play a team game.

So deliberate bullying, racism, homophobia or other forms of discrimination are out; banter and the occasional naughty word that’s not directed at an individual are part of the game. I guess it will remain up to common sense to decide what’s what.

However, in the case of refereeing an openly gay team, I’d say it makes the short pre-match chat with the captains essential; just make it clear what will and will not be accepted; that’s fair for all concerned.

It's an important issue to me; I'm not gay, but have gay clubmates, and I'm involved in promoting rugby via my club in a 'minor nation', where we need to make every new player, from whatever background, feel welcome at the club and in the sport; quite simply, we want the game to grow here. Anything that makes people feel unwelcome in our game makes it that much harder to persuade people to have a go and to persuade parents to bring their kids along to the club to try youth rugby.

 

[crossref]

There's something different about a gay player in a team, and a 'gay team'.

In the first case the player's sexuality seems to me irrelevant... He's just a rugby player and rugby isn't about your sexuality it's about, well rugby. If someone else on the field makes a thing about it, I'd tell them to leave it out.

But In the second case - a gay rugby club. Well now suddenly sexuality has been brought directly onto the rugby field. It's the gay team that is now making a thing about it. Which is odd. Egregious even.

I am old enough to remember the rugby world being cut in two when teams finally woke up to S Africa and refused to play teams that were selected on racist principles. To be honest I would have to think hard about a new club calling itself London Blacks (even if there were some non-black players in it)

I am just not sure that it moves us in the right direction - to a place where we are colour, and sexuality blind.

 

[Mich the Blind Side]

There's something different about a gay player in a team, and a 'gay team'.

In the first case the player's sexuality seems to me irrelevant... He's just a rugby player and rugby isn't about your sexuality it's about, well rugby. If someone else on the field makes a thing about it, I'd tell them to leave it out.

But In the second case - a gay rugby club. Well now suddenly sexuality has been brought directly onto the rugby field. It's the gay team that is now making a thing about it. Which is odd. Egregious even.

I am old enough to remember the rugby world being cut in two when teams finally woke up to S Africa and refused to play teams that were selected on racist principles. To be honest I would have to think hard about a new club calling itself London Blacks (even if there were some non-black players in it)

I am just not sure that it moves us in the right direction - to a place where we are colour, and sexuality blind.

Erm, difficult one. I think on the whole that gay rugby teams are a good thing, IF they are bringing people to the game who would otherwise feel unwelcome. If on the other hand they are taking in players who’d be perfectly welcome at any other club it’s a different matter.

I think in the future we might see the gay rugby clubs actually just becoming ‘normal’ rugby clubs, as social taboos are broken down and people start to see Kings Cross Steelers and the like as ‘the local rugby club’ and just join because they’re nearby.

Both gay clubs and other clubs will hopefully move toward complete integration and it shouldn’t be an issue in the future. I’m an optimist about these matters and I see this is as a little sidestep on the way to the try-line instead of a run in the wrong direction. The try line being a game that is truly blind to colour, sexuality, religion and nationality.

 

[crossref]

One thing in that mitigates toward gay clubs in rugby, specifically as opposed to other sprots, is that rugby clubs have a long tradition of being organised around a common interest or heritage.

In other sports clubs were almost invariably simply location based. In rugby we have that, but we also have Old Thiswegians and Old Thatschoolians, there is the Civil Service and the Police, and of course the nationality based clubs - London Irish, Welsh and French and Nigerians. And so on.

All of those have their origins in a certain sort of old-fashioned exclusivity that would no doubt seem very odd to us if we weren't so used to it. Perhaps having a gay club is part of this tradition.

But still: we also suffer in rugby from being under-represented amongst some ethnic minorities - but don't think anyone would suggest that setting up a race-based club was a good idea, we all much prefer to integrate so...

It's complicated.

But as a ref it's easy: ref what you see in front of you.

 

[Phil E]

The try line being a game that is truly blind to colour, sexuality, religion and nationality.

Gonna make Internationals a bit difficult isn't it? :chin:

 

[Mich the Blind Side]

Gonna make Internationals a bit difficult isn't it? :chin:

No. We now live in a world where many, many people migrate from one country to another. I know that some people take issue with that, but I think rugby has been quite admirable in stepping beyond the old concepts of nationality; let the politicians sort out the immigration stuff and let’s just enjoy the game together. We’ve seen South Africans, New Zealanders and a Tongan playing for England, Englishmen playing for New Zealand, Australians playing for Japan and Georgians playing for France. I don’t have a problem with that at all; people move to another country and then grab the chance to represent that country in a sport. I’m originally English, but if I had the chance to play for the Dutch national team I would grab that chance. Doesn’t make me less English, it just shows that in more ways than one I’m Dutch as well.

Let’s keep rugby cosmopolitan and worldly please.

 

[dave_clark]

and of course the nationality based clubs - London Irish, Welsh and French and Nigerians.

anyone know exactly how many london exile clubs there are? i don't, so looked it up. this might not be a definitive list, but in addition to the above i found:

New Zealand
Cornish
Irish (amateur)
Scottish
South African

probably more too.

whoever said London is an inclusive city was clearly talking bollocks. well, in rugby terms anyway

 

[Mich the Blind Side]

anyone know exactly how many london exile clubs there are? i don't, so looked it up. this might not be a definitive list, but in addition to the above i found:

New Zealand
Cornish
Irish (amateur)
Scottish
South African

probably more too.

whoever said London is an inclusive city was clearly talking bollocks. well, in rugby terms anyway

Yep, but I know that London Irish is an open club these days; don’t know about the others.

 

[Phil E]

Let’s keep rugby cosmopolitan and worldly please.

Your irony meter is bust.

 

[crossref]

I think all of those teams are nowadays (and probably always were) a mixture of people who are of that heritage + their mates + locals

 

[Mich the Blind Side]

Your irony meter is bust.

I play rugby in Holland, and have done for 15 years; we just don't have issues with players' nationality, sexuality or any other part of their background here, at least certainly not at my club or the other two clubs where I played.

I would hope that English rugby has reached that point too, but maybe it can only ever be a reflection of society.