Some Questions

[Mike Whittaker]

Surely nobody is going to suggest emulating Spreaders???!!!

He is an international ref and a good one at that! He can get away with what ever he wants because he is who he is. He is also quick witted, a gift that few possess to that standard.

If you want a ref to emulate then try Kaplan for management and communication. Then when you get on the International panel you can branch out a bit...

 

[ex-lucy]

what about when the advice starts amiably then insidiously gets turned up a notch or 2 after a while ... drip, drip, drip ...
It got to a point on Sat eith advice from the capt, that i penalised him for telling me that his oppo winger was in touch. He had several warnings for 'advice'. I was about to blow for touch when he shouted "he's in touch. He's out. in touch."
then with one minute to go ... he was 5m out from the try line, one man to beat, chips the last defender, is taken out. bit of afters by attacking centre. Blow to stop the match. I stop the watch. Request centre and oppo winger to go to middle for a chat. Check capt is ok. Then:
"I assume he is gone for that, sir".
"i've asked you before several times not to advise me how to referee this match. pls dont do it."
"oh come on, he has to go for that"
"i'll make the decision, pls stop now. Are you up to talking to your centre?"
So, i admonish the centre, explaining we have 2 mins to go can he control himself for 2 mins or should i bin him? He says he can control himself.
I go to oppo winger and explain that he didnt attempt to go for the ball and what he did was unacceptable and ask him to leave the pitch showing a yellow card.
Then the capt says "that's a penalty try, then isnt it? I would definitely have scored that try if he hadnt taken me out" ....

What would you have done ?

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Penalty, but no penalty try as decision reversed and yellow card for dissension.

 

[Gareth-Lee Smith]

Toughie. I think I'd award the penalty try and bin the captain. Though I'm not sure that the order of events permits it. If you'd already awarded the PT and then had to deal with the miscreants and the captain had neglected to notice that, then it would be so much easier.

In an ideal world, as above. Otherwise a loud word in his ear and the PT.

 

[OB..]

It is not clear if you agreed with the idiot captain that he would probably have scored but for the foul play. Obviously if you disagree there is no problem over the PT. If you were inclined to agree, maybe your inclination has now been downgraded!

It sounds to me as if you would have been better off yellow carding him earlier. Then this would be a second yellow, and he could explain to the Disciplinary Committee why he persistently ignored your instructions to keep quiet. He is clearly a menace, and needs sorting out.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Was also tempted to suggest that you should have dealt with it earlier but hindsight is a wonderful thing and doesn't help dealing with the eventual dilemma.

Did you tell us what you did do? Sorry if I missed it...

 

[Deeps]

Ex - Lucy, I go back to my earlier point to Peperami; I think you must have left it too late. It's thin end of the wedge time again.

Make it clear at the skippers brief that you do not need nor will tolerate advice from players concerning matters of decision, least of all from skippers.

Many will use their lofty position to beat you over the head as will the eager soul who is desperate to run touch e.g assistant coaches on Sunday mornings. All players are b'**tards, skippers are double b'**tards; hit them hard in the first ten minutes, let nothing go and don't hesitate the moment you get any dissent. Don't argue, just blow your whistle and stick your arm up; two iterations later, skippers' chat midfield about your rapidly disappearing options.

Some skippers persist 'But I am only concerned for the welfare of my players!', how I hate that phrase; as if I am not! Fortunately I am well qualified and can take that awesome responsibility for his player's safety away from him. What some don't realise is that there is no God or IRB given right for skippers to talk to referees. Persistant earache can and has in extremis in some of my games resulted in the skipper being summarily relieved of his duties and another Captain appointed by me.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Ex - Lucy, I go back to my earlier point to Peperami; I think you must have left it too late. It's thin end of the wedge time again.

OK point made, but having not done that... what does he do??

 

[Davet]

You say you blew the whistle to stop the match after the attacking centre had got unnecessarily involved. It sounds from as though were playing an advantage, after the player was "taken out".

Did you think it was a PT? It sounds quite possible.. if so then it would been best to award it immediately, - Whistle, hand raised and running to the posts (while facing the players). That itself may have prevented the afters.

 

[Greg Collins]

Many will use their lofty position to beat you over the head as will the eager soul who is desperate to run touch e.g assistant coaches on Sunday mornings.

I will no longer tolerate chat from TJ's: If a Sunday morning assistant coach volunteers he gets told with a big smile. "Thanks, Now you can either coach or run touch but you can't do both. I'd prefer you to coach" a pause usually ensues before said coach collars a Dad or a sub and gives the flag to them. A small minority insist on running touch and of these most stay supportive. If they then coach their players I'll turn a deaf ear, but if they start to "coach" me, they first get a quiet word, then a strong word, and if they then persist they get relieved of their TJ duties.

Doesn't always work out to a happy conclusion. How was I to know the coach running touch was a fellow Society member and occassional Society referee..... It resulted in an interesting discussion between us the next time we met when he tried to pull rank. He tried to insist that he had some sort of right to run touch and told me I was out of order "last time". Well hacked off I suggested I'd come down one Sunday, with my Society kit on, when he was reffing and hurl "advice" and shouts of "No Way mate!" and "Are these your own Laws or the ones the IRB use?" at him from the touchline. We compromised; he ran touch but kept quiet - however his side won by a country mile which I think was the biggest contributor to the lack of noise.

Is my approach, of one job or other but not both, a reasonable one? (Yes I'd rather not have a TJ than one that is iether coaching his team or his players.)

 

[beckett50]

Is my approach, of one job or other but not both, a reasonable one? (Yes I'd rather not have a TJ than one that is iether coaching his team or his players.)

Greg, not unreasonable at all.

As to the back-chat issue it is true that it is more of a problem at the "sub-soil" (to quote OB ) level.

If I encounter the "advice calls" from players early in the game I will immediately blow the whistle for the offence and announce "So you don't want the advantage then?" - with the appropriate smile of course . Usually nips it in the bud, along with the reminder to the skipper and, if necessary, the pack leader. Very often the moans come from the forwards, and the captain may be playing in the backs and so unaware of the advice being given.

As to being chatty with the players, it is best to chat at down-time. I tend to limit my comments to players with praise about a phase of play - eg thanks for the good gaps at the line-out, or a particular incident that occured - eg thanks #? sorting out the off-side line, as well as keeping them informed as to the reason for the lengthy stoppage etc.

I see it as me being informatively communicative. If one of the players wants to engage in a conversation during these pauses in play I will answer the questions put and offer a comment only if invited, but remain politic with the answer

 

[ex-lucy]

well, the score was 26-17 to the defending team (yellow) with only 2 mins or less to go. I believe that the winger/ capt may well have scored ... so i awarded the PT. I believe it to be a pragmatic decision. By the time the defending team fetched the ball and walked up for restart there was less than 1 min to go. It ended 26-24 with a knock on by green.
hindsight ... it was too late to YC in my opinion. I had left the door ajar but the advice was insidious ... slowly drip drip drip .. started with a smile, seemingly as banter, not enough for serious chats much easier to ignore and just say "trust my judgement" and "pls dont advise me".. etc. Then notched up a bit as the game got tight and nearer the end. Second half, he was full of "but that's diff from other refs" and "you have to penalise him that's the rules" ... then the denouement ...

 

[Deeps]

OK point made, but having not done that... what does he do??

At one minute to go? Call time and go and enjoy a hot bath!

 

[ex-lucy]

PS: most of the green team came up to me post match and congratulated me on my control of the match and in particular their skipper. I didnt get wound up like some refs they have had, i kept calm. All Yellow were very happy with my reffing. It seems that only one or 2 greens out of 34 or so players were the only players not too happy with my reffing but i have a feeling that it would take a Spreaders to make them happy and only if they won most decisions as well as the match.
"Complacency is the mother and father of all f**k ups" ... and i think after a good bit of banter in the changing rooms and at the prematch brief and for the first few mins, i got complacent and believed that it was going to be a good easy match and relaxed letting the door become ajar ... door stopper put in place by green capt. No harm done, Lesson learnt.
But there could be a trend developing ... becoming too relaxed and too complacent ... i am trying to enjoy my rugby ... but sometimes maybe too much. On the one hand i am told by assessors to smile more and enjoy my rugby and the on the other I have to remain concentrating and be less complacent. Maybe i should take less of those leniency pills.

 

[Dixie]

OK - just to go back to the basics here. If a player, whether or not a captain, appeals to the ref for an offence to be actioned, does he breach any laws of the game (other than 10.4(k) acts contrary to good sportsmanship [which is a very subjective measure])? Possibly by appealing, he's dissenting against the decision that nothing happened - but that seems pretty thin-skinned to me. If not, then we operate under 10.4(k) which is fair enough, but as it is so subjective we have to get our message across clearly and consistently to both sides.

 

[OB..]

I see no benefit whatsoever in allowing players to give "advice".

You obviously cannot take any notice of it, since you can only award what you see.

The only outcomes can be bad eg a side gets irritated because, since you are ignoring their calls, you must be wrong; or a team gets irritated because you seem to be refereeing according to the "advice". of the opposition.

Make it clear from the start that they should concentrate on playing not refereeing, and stick to it - gently to start with, but escalating as needed.

 

[Emmet Murphy]

The player who sticks a leg out in a reflex when wrong-footed is perhaps worthy of a YC. The player who misses with the first one and does it again is, in my view, deserving of a red. And the player who kicks out deliberately when done for skill or pace gets straight red in my games - as I posted two weeks ago. It's something they should have eradicated from their game in U.10 matches.

Dixie - I'm not trying to criticise here just better my understainding of this issue ... compare an intentional trip to 'boots on bodies' - in my opinion the latter is more dangerous because it is done with a player's body weight behind it. Yet - unless it is particularly aggressive - most of us would only show a YC. The same with a high tackle - some do result in a RC but most don't. Again, the fact that a high tackle is around the neck / head (in my opinion) makes it more dangerous than a trip. I've always thought that a RC for a deliberate trip was a disproportionate response - am I alone in thinking that?

 

[Greg Collins]

If I encounter the "advice calls" from players early in the game I will immediately blow the whistle for the offence and announce "So you don't want the advantage then?" - with the appropriate smile of course . Usually nips it in the bud, along with the reminder to the skipper and, if necessary, the pack leader. Very often the moans come from the forwards, and the captain may be playing in the backs and so unaware of the advice being given.

What do you do if ealry in the game the first, or second, advice call is wrong and you weren't going to play advantage as no offence has taken place? E.g "That's a forward pass ref!" from Red when you judge it other wise? I just call "Get on with it" or "Play on" which set me thinking...

...would you ever find yourself with your arm out "Penalty advantage blue - dissent"?

 

[Simon Thomas]

How was I to know the coach running touch was a fellow Society member and occassional Society referee..... It resulted in an interesting discussion between us the next time we met when he tried to pull rank. He tried to insist that he had some sort of right to run touch and told me I was out of order "last time". Well hacked off I suggested I'd come down one Sunday, with my Society kit on, when he was reffing and hurl "advice" and shouts of "No Way mate!" and "Are these your own Laws or the ones the IRB use?" at him from the touchline.

1. If he is a Society Referee I would expect him to show me the respect and courtesy I would extend to him in a role reversal (HINT to Deeps for Sunday's match v Jersey - pmsl !)

2. You should only be wearing Society kit as and when appointed by the Society as an official TJ, complying with RFU Regulation 8.1.1. Otherwise I would expect you to be in 'civvies'.

 

[Gareth-Lee Smith]

Yes, said referee obviously didn't attend the bit of the training session where you are told that you don't comment on a fellow referee's performance negatively so as to undermine him. That was covered in the first 30 minutes when I took my Foundation Level 1 about 2 years ago.

Too many referees seem to not appreciate this. A fellow forum member was getting a little stick on Wednesday from a coach and I sidled up to him to correct his misunderstanding (he was complaining that there had been warning of escalation at the next high tackle and none had been forthcoming on that one, however the referee has not awarded another high tackle and so no escalation was required at that time - quite right), to which his response was something along the line of being a referee himself, and not much else that was relevant. When you get the old 'I'm a referee myself' routine, have you noticed how many times a 'therefore...' comes up? They're unable to qualify what their status equates to in a match where they're not holding the whistle. Deep down they know that they shouldn't do it, but they just can't resist.