[Tackle] South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

Pinky


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So, think about how the parents of the tackled player might feel about this and whether the game should allow that sort of hit a schoolboy level. There are folk on here who thing that very heavy hits that injure are OK as long as they are not late or high, but I don't agree as these hits take folk out of the game and if professionals stops them being able to work.

Back to this one, it looked like the tackler launched himself at the upper part of the tackled player. If the initial contact was below the shoulders, it certainly subsequently rode up to include contact with head, so for me there is very little doubt that that is a dangerous tackle, and that the tackler needs to have a sit down for at least 10 mins to consider what he had done.
 

SimonSmith


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So, think about how the parents of the tackled player might feel about this and whether the game should allow that sort of hit a schoolboy level. There are folk on here who thing that very heavy hits that injure are OK as long as they are not late or high, but I don't agree as these hits take folk out of the game and if professionals stops them being able to work.

Back to this one, it looked like the tackler launched himself at the upper part of the tackled player. If the initial contact was below the shoulders, it certainly subsequently rode up to include contact with head, so for me there is very little doubt that that is a dangerous tackle, and that the tackler needs to have a sit down for at least 10 mins to consider what he had done.
I think I disagree with every point you make (says the 5'7 ex s/half)
Injury is a risk that you take every time you step on to the field; what you are implicitly saying is that big guys can't leverage all their physical ability to best effect. You are, in effect, dumbing down to cater to the smallest player.

I didn't see head contact. I saw a drive through the upper chest area - legal- which because of the force flipped the ball carrier. A legal hit with an unfortunately bad outcome.
 

Pablo


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I don't buy into any of the arguments about intent, or "unfortunate", or whether it was a "true" lift, etc. Nobody can reasonably deny that the actions of the tackler resulted in the tackled player being flipped over.

I'll draw an analogy. Years ago, boots on bodies in rucks was considered normal and "part of the game". Then, 20-25ish years ago, the powers that be decided (rightly IMHO) that this was an unnecessary element of risk, and that standing on players on the ground would be penalised. A zero-tolerance approach was taken, on the premise that players were responsible for where they put their feet. There was a sizeable contingent (mainly of the armchair expert / retired player / the-older-I-get-the-better-I-was type) that bemoaned the death of "proper rucking", but miraculously, season by season, players got better at stepping over bodies on the floor, referees got better at dealing with players on the floor, and gratuitous stamping became largely a thing of the past.

For some time now, we have been going through a similar transition with tackling. The powers that be have decided (rightly IMHO) that players landing with force on their head and neck is a bad thing, both for the player and for the game. So we have incidents like Umaga/Mealamu dumping O'Driscoll going totally unpunished in 2005, but just 6 years later Sam Warburton gets a RWC red card for a challenge half as dangerous. It's a drive to improve player safety, but just like the rucks in my analogy, there's a contingent (mainly of the armchair expert / retired player / the-older-I-get-the-better-I-was type) bemoaning the death of "proper tackling". And the way we will best embed the changes is by making tacklers responsible. There will always be the unavoidable - the awkward fall, the ankle twisted in the turf, etc. - but we can control the avoidable. And sure enough, eight years after the Warburton tackle, most rugby folk now understand that a tip tackle will be penalised.

So to this specific tackle:
- Was it dangerous? Yes - anything causing a ball carrier to land head first is (rightly IMHO) now considered dangerous. And let's be clear, while it may not have been intentional, the tackler (and nobody else) caused the ball carrier to land on his head.
- Was it reckless? I would contend yes. At that speed, from the moment the tackler left his feet, he relinquished any physical means to exert control over the collision.
- Could he have tackled differently? Absolutely. That rocket tackle was a choice, not an accident.
- How do we eliminate reckless, dangerous tackles like this? The same way we removed "a good shoeing" and "a good old-fashioned dump tackle" - with a consistent front that says this type of uncontrolled collision is unacceptable, and if you choose to instigate one then your game is over. And sooner or later, players will choose not to tackle like this.
 

Jz558


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Pablo, I absolutely admire your compassion and desire for a safer game however you’re just plain wrong in this case. I don’t know the age group but looking at the guy who was tackled I’m thinking U15s. The kid whose tackled him is probably the same age, rubbish judgement and as has been mentioned before probably keen to show off his newly arrived physic. I’ve seen it loads with the kids I’ve coached, massively keen to clobber someone until they try it and end up on their arse. Here we are judging it like it was Manu taking out Hadley Parkes. Sometimes extraordinary things happen. If I’m reffing this I’m blowing for a break to get the tackled guy seen to and I’m in no rush to restart the game before I’ve spoken to both coaches. Essentially though a 14/15 year old kid has made a misjudgement.
 

crossref


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Pablo, I absolutely admire your compassion and desire for a safer game however you’re just plain wrong in this case. I don’t know the age group but looking at the guy who was tackled I’m thinking U15s. The kid whose tackled him is probably the same age, rubbish judgement and as has been mentioned before probably keen to show off his newly arrived physic. I’ve seen it loads with the kids I’ve coached, massively keen to clobber someone until they try it and end up on their arse. Here we are judging it like it was Manu taking out Hadley Parkes. Sometimes extraordinary things happen. If I’m reffing this I’m blowing for a break to get the tackled guy seen to and I’m in no rush to restart the game before I’ve spoken to both coaches. Essentially though a 14/15 year old kid has made a misjudgement.

Do you think ?

In my judgement the 'tackler' spotted a not very alert ball carrier, much smaller than himself, and went out with the clear intention to smash him as late as he could get away with, and as hard as he could, short of a red card.
 
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menace


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From the hollowing words of pablo, if Im to believe his line of thinking, the next time I see a broken bone or bad injury to the tackled player I guess I should instantly RC the tackler regardless of the circumstances. Clearly by association alone it was all his fault.

Nah...on second thoughts I think I'll stick to applying the laws.

There's empthy and sympathy with law application and I'm seeing quite a few that really would benefit their refereeing by looking up and understanding the difference.
 

crossref


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I think your reasoning is very Laws based, without seeing the big picture

Do you think that incidents like that are good thing, or a damaging thing for age grade rugby ?
 
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Flish


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I’m genuinely intrigued as to how many of the commenters on this thread regularly ref, or better yet are involved in the development of age grade rugby (England or otherwise) because it seems quite a few are out of touch with the guidance I get and the goals we’re trying to achieve. No 1 is getting the kids to come back next week, not sure how saying ‘this is ok’ achieves that, it goes above and beyond the laws, and much broader empathy.

legally ok != appropriate for a kids game
 

menace


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I think your reasoning is very Laws based, without seeing the big picture

Do you think that incidents like that are good thing, or a damaging thing for age grade rugby ?

ha ha ha...pot meet kettle! I'm going to save that phrase and show it to you whenever you get on your law soap box.

yes - I think it can be damaging to age grade rugby - but my slant is to review the system and change the system, don't manipulate the current laws to bend with your emotional slant and your personal agenda.

If you penalise and sit a kid out because he played within the laws that is just as bad if not worse as he's going to leave the game (out of frustration). Finding a PK or card to justify your agenda not the answer.

As I've already said, I have a small 14yo son and worry about him playing at times, but I also have a union where I have the option to move him age groups more suitable to his size if I wish. But I recognise that also won't stop him getting hurt in a collision sport.
I have refereed for over 10 years (to reasonable levels) and I have coached age grade rugby for a number of years for both of my sons teams (and they/re both #9's!) - so I am acutely aware of safety and enjoyment for kids and getting them wanting to come back. The reality is some kids soon realise that contact sport is not for them and they go and play tag.
 

Pablo


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From the hollowing words of pablo, if Im to believe his line of thinking, the next time I see a broken bone or bad injury to the tackled player I guess I should instantly RC the tackler regardless of the circumstances. Clearly by association alone it was all his fault.

This is a straw man, and not remotely close to what I said. Would you like to address my actual argument?
 

crossref


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yes - I think it can be damaging to age grade rugby - but my slant is to review the system and change the system, don't manipulate the current laws to bend with your emotional slant and your personal agenda.

If you penalise and sit a kid out because he played within the Laws

My "personal agenda" being safety ?
My "'personal agenda" being to attract and retain kids to rugby ?

I don't think that tackle is legal. It's an excellent example of what 9.11 is in the Law Book for.
 
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Marc Wakeham


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I’m genuinely intrigued as to how many of the commenters on this thread regularly ref, or better yet are involved in the development of age grade rugby (England or otherwise) because it seems quite a few are out of touch with the guidance I get and the goals we’re trying to achieve. No 1 is getting the kids to come back next week, not sure how saying ‘this is ok’ achieves that, it goes above and beyond the laws, and much broader empathy.

legally ok != appropriate for a kids game

I think I said earlier "CONTEXT" There are gmes where that tackle will be considered dangerous there are games where it would not be considered dangerous.

AGE, Very hard ground and Experience levels are just three considerations.

I read the majority of posters to be in that camp. We are discussing the incident is over all terms.

FACTS:

It was not a TIP tackle.

Outcome in terms of injury does not "decide" any sanction.

Would I have sanctioned the tackler in that particular game?

I don't know as I do not have the full facts in my armchair to make that call.
 

mcroker

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For me the number 1 consideration must be player safety (especially when reffing a youth game).

That tackle was dangerous - and I certainly wouldn't want to see that happen in the game again - so I am going to sanction it, admonish the player and given the severity consider a card, and then find a basis in law for that decision to sell it.

Whilst there is no grasping/lifting action - the height/angle/force of the tackle caused the players hips to lift above the shoulders and then the head impacts to the floor) this for me meets the definition of 9.18. Also I consider that this was dangerous so 9.11 and 9.13 equally apply.

[LAWS]9.11 Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others.[/LAWS]

[LAWS]9.13 A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously. Dangerous tackling includes, but is not limited to, tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders.[/LAWS]

[LAWS]9.18 A player must not lift an opponent off the ground and drop or drive that player so that their head and/or upper body make contact with the ground.[/LAWS]
 
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Marc Wakeham


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9.18 is wrong. He did not lift the player. If you took that to a DC it would, almost certainly be throw out. 9.11 and 9.13 would be in some contexts valid.

See a number of high profile incidents, where the ruling has been "No lift because the actions of a second player affected the outcome" etc.
 

crossref


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I think I said earlier "CONTEXT" There are gmes where that tackle will be considered dangerous there are games where it would not be considered dangerous.

AGE, Very hard ground and Experience levels are just three considerations.

I read the majority of posters to be in that camp. We are discussing the incident is over all terms.

FACTS:

It was not a TIP tackle.

Outcome in terms of injury does not "decide" any sanction.

Would I have sanctioned the tackler in that particular game?

I don't know as I do not have the full facts in my armchair to make that call.

Would you be OK for it to happen again ? Or again and again anagain ?
 

mcroker

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9.18 is wrong. He did not lift the player. If you took that to a DC it would, almost certainly be throw out. 9.11 and 9.13 would be in some contexts valid.

See a number of high profile incidents, where the ruling has been "No lift because the actions of a second player affected the outcome" etc.

I suspect you are right, you almost certainly have more experience of DC than I do... although I note the word lift has all sorts of definitions in the OED. "Pick up and move to a different position.", "Raise to a higher position or level."

I think the action is upwards, which is why the body responds as it does.
 

Marc Wakeham


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I suspect you are right, you almost certainly have more experience of DC than I do... although I note the word lift has all sorts of definitions in the OED. "Pick up and move to a different position.", "Raise to a higher position or level."

I think the action is upwards, which is why the body responds as it does.


The action was parallel to the ground. which naturally (physics) causes the legs to swing upwards. That is not lifiting in the core sense. A lift requires and upward force. To move a body (using your definition) you pick the object up (lift) and them move it the lifit is the first part of the action.


I think that, in trying to shoe horn this into "tip tackle" definitions. You are missing the point. In a game situation the question is "Was that dangerous?" a "binary" question. Work from there. After the game, when filing your card report, yo ucan orry about the Law reference.
 

mcroker

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The action was parallel to the ground. which naturally (physics) causes the legs to swing upwards. That is not lifiting in the core sense. A lift requires and upward force. To move a body (using your definition) you pick the object up (lift) and them move it the lifit is the first part of the action.

I'm not sure that's correct - I have done Ju-Jitsu for many years, where getting the opponent to do exactly that is encouraged rather than penalised. To get the opponent to flip up like that you have to lift then off their feet (simultaneous backwards, and upwards force). If you just hit them horizontally then they crumble in a heap rather than flipping - there has to be some upwards force.

I think that, in trying to shoe horn this into "tip tackle" definitions. You are missing the point. In a game situation the question is "Was that dangerous?" a "binary" question. Work from there. After the game, when filing your card report, yo ucan orry about the Law reference.


Not at all - On the pitch I am penalising as dangerous, and selling the decision in the best way I can. I am not arguing that 9.18 is a better sell than 9.11 or 9.13, or TBH which would occur to me on the pitch in the heat of the moment (whilst dealing with bigger concerns such as do I need to call an ambulance and/or hearse). Writing up post match then I am fine with the guidance that 9.11 and 9.13 are better fits.
 

menace


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This is a straw man, and not remotely close to what I said. Would you like to address my actual argument?

Yeah. ...don't have the energy. :deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:
I realise we are going in circles. Time to get off this carousel.

Ill let you and crossref use the subjective 9.11 to your hearts content.
 
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