Springboks v Lions

shebeen

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I suppose this is the Rassiegate thread so best place to continue it, as it is sort of returning.

Rassie is now using his Twitter profile to hint at reffing incidents since being let out of 'jail'. I'm not sure if this is considered free speech comment or anything outlawed by World Rugby. (I assume he doesn't have any suspend sentences/restrictions).


Seems like it could be chicken and egg scenario, complaining about bad decisions and calling out a ref publicly is probably not going to improve the decisions you get in the future.

This is probably a good game to discuss it, as the decisions from WB in the last quarter were poor. The players complained more and it didn't help. No point in now bringing it up on Twitter after the game, real problems should be going through the correct channels behind the scenes.

At the end of the day the whole Rassie leaked video was quite effective in turning around and winning a Lions series, but at the detriment of long term image and reputation damage. He should realize this and close his Twitter account.
 

SimonSmith


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I suppose this is the Rassiegate thread so best place to continue it, as it is sort of returning.

Rassie is now using his Twitter profile to hint at reffing incidents since being let out of 'jail'. I'm not sure if this is considered free speech comment or anything outlawed by World Rugby. (I assume he doesn't have any suspend sentences/restrictions).


Seems like it could be chicken and egg scenario, complaining about bad decisions and calling out a ref publicly is probably not going to improve the decisions you get in the future.

This is probably a good game to discuss it, as the decisions from WB in the last quarter were poor. The players complained more and it didn't help. No point in now bringing it up on Twitter after the game, real problems should be going through the correct channels behind the scenes.

At the end of the day the whole Rassie leaked video was quite effective in turning around and winning a Lions series, but at the detriment of long term image and reputation damage. He should realize this and close his Twitter account.
He's a folk hero with the only people he cares about - South Africans. He isn't going to stop.
 

BikingBud


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Some great comments on there not least:

"I’d like Wayne to do a video analysing your coaching. We could compare the two. I confidently predict he’d be the winner in any comparison"

or

"Every coach could sit down and look at the game over and over and in slow motion and pick out errors made by a ref. Get a grip on yourself. You're becoming a laughing stock."

Very easy to build a reputation and make enemies what with on-field theatrics and constant whinging from de Klerk, WB offered a general waring to Siya earlier, so getting any sort of empathy from match officials going forward will be extremely difficult.

Interesting conspiracy theories around 🙄
 

shebeen

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Some great comments on there not least:

"I’d like Wayne to do a video analysing your coaching. We could compare the two. I confidently predict he’d be the winner in any comparison"

or

"Every coach could sit down and look at the game over and over and in slow motion and pick out errors made by a ref. Get a grip on yourself. You're becoming a laughing stock."

Very easy to build a reputation and make enemies what with on-field theatrics and constant whinging from de Klerk, WB offered a general waring to Siya earlier, so getting any sort of empathy from match officials going forward will be extremely difficult.

Interesting conspiracy theories around 🙄
It's not a good cycle.

Complain about referee bias and bad decisions in the media, is just resulting in more bias and bad decisions from referees.

It's on field as well. In the final 17 minutes of the FRA-RSA game apparently the last 11 consecutive decisions from referee went against RSA (some clear cut, some 50:50, some wrong). Not helped by multiple players continually complaining to the ref.
 

shebeen

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This is not going away.
 

BikingBud


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This is not going away.
So that helps, not.

Why do these pundits publicly demonstrate that they are still players at heart and whilst their playing career may have been excellent, their grasp of the laws and the mechanics of refereeing a game is somewhat lacking.

Goode started off well commenting upon offside lines killing attacking play being applied effectively, a long held point for me) and then Big Jim says de Klerk wasn't offside using a shot where 4 green players are in clearly front of the hindmost foot:censored:

"Barnesie can only go off what his assistant referee is telling him" - :censored: Nope, he clearly counters one of the inputs to say he wasn't convinced there was a breakdown.

I would have thought most teams are focussed on what they can control, the vast number of errors any team make should be the first point of scrutiny before forensically dissecting the performance of the referee.

Perhaps it is all about Rassie's job retention scheme!

Will he provide the same level of "impartial" scrutiny after the game against Italy this weekend, win or lose?
 

Dickie E


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World Rugby condemns any public criticism of match official selection, performance or integrity, which undermines their role, the trust-based coach/match officials feedback process and the values of integrity, respect, solidarity and discipline that are at the heart of the sport.

A blanket condemnation on any critical review of performance seems heavy handed
 

Locke


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A blanket condemnation on any critical review of performance seems heavy handed
There seems to be an established process for teams/coaches to provide their feedback on the match officials’ performance to World Rugby. Publicly bashing referees, especially with the tone Rassie has been taking, does not benefit the sport or any person involved.
 

RedCapRef

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I watched most of the internationals at the weekend, either full game or highlights on Stan and the constant criticism of all of the referees by the commentators was disappointing to say the least. I then watched an English Premiership game from the other week and it was almost as bad.
If they got the laws right themselves it would help, but they don't even take notice of the secondary signals given by the ref and start complaining about a decision that has not even been given.
 

Mipper


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I watched most of the internationals at the weekend, either full game or highlights on Stan and the constant criticism of all of the referees by the commentators was disappointing to say the least. I then watched an English Premiership game from the other week and it was almost as bad.
If they got the laws right themselves it would help, but they don't even take notice of the secondary signals given by the ref and start complaining about a decision that has not even been given.
Yes, in my view many commentators or more often the (ex-player) summarisers have been caught up in the decision blame game, and appear not to be able to help themselves.

That said, I do detect that there has recently been a slight mellowing of this, and I now often hear defence of “debatable” decisions.

To be honest, I do believe that many of these ex player summarisers are partly to blame for the behaviour that we too often see on our touch lines.

When all we heard on TV was Bill McLaren or Nigel Starmer-Smith, I don’t believe we had anything like the level of “feedback” that we get today at grassroots level.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Yes, in my view many commentators or more often the (ex-player) summarisers have been caught up in the decision blame game, and appear not to be able to help themselves.

That said, I do detect that there has recently been a slight mellowing of this, and I now often hear defence of “debatable” decisions.

To be honest, I do believe that many of these ex player summarisers are partly to blame for the behaviour that we too often see on our touch lines.

When all we heard on TV was Bill McLaren or Nigel Starmer-Smith, I don’t believe we had anything like the level of “feedback” that we get today at grassroots level.
I think you make a very good point but I'm not sure if it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are modern commentators/pundits the symptom or the cause?

That said I don't think it's that modern a phenomenon although I think it did change after BMC retired about 20 years ago. Listen to Miles Harrison banging on about Warburton's RC against France in 2011- A RED CARD - FOR THAT?

I can't imagine BMC would condone Brian Moore and Jonathan Davies' later pronouncements although both were reined in a bit by Eddie Butler. Since BMC and away from the BBC we've had Stuart Barnes and his words of wisdom then we fly to the other end of the spectrum and we enter the world of Justin Marshall and (God help us) Phil Kearns. I haven't seen any Super Rugby for a few years now (since I got rid of Sky) so I assume it's no worse - or is it?

I always liked John Taylor as a ex-player commentator.
 

BikingBud


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BBC Sport

"The man at the head of World Rugby - chief executive Alan Gilpin - said the latest censure of Erasmus was about protecting officials at all levels.

"This is about every referee who is, on a Sunday morning, refereeing kids' rugby anywhere in the world, having permission to do the job properly, and not having every parent on the touchline posting videos on social media," he told Rugby Union Daily.

"That's the really important thing in terms of the integrity of the game."

Seems entirely reasonable an appropriate(y)
 

shebeen

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The blanket support of Rassie and his social media campaign from South Africans is on the wane. If it is supposed to be goading referees into awarding 50/50 calls to green, then it's just not working. Former player, coach and now respected pundit Nick Mallett ways in here with his column:






Rassie Erasmus' latest World Rugby ban should come as no surprise, while his methods are more damaging to the Springbok cause than he might realise, writes Nick Mallett.





The Springboks have been dealt a major blow on their end-of-year tour with the news that director of rugby Rassie Erasmus has copped another World Rugby ban that will see him sidelined from the last two Tests against Italy and England.

It is a development that has sent shockwaves through South Africa, but it is also one that shouldn't come as a surprise.

Erasmus' method of taking to Twitter to highlight inaccuracies in officiating has ruffled feathers, and while many South Africans agree with the issues he has pointed towards, it is a tactic that has ultimately backfired and contributed negatively to the Springbok cause.

The British & Irish Lions series last year unveiled the frustration Rassie had with World Rugby and their inability to report back to coaches on officiating decisions quickly enough after games or admit if referees had made mistakes.

Every coach is keen to stay within the laws, so when Rassie didn't get replies quickly enough after the first Test, it resulted in a leaked video that saw him hammer Nic Berry's handling of the first Lions Test. Erasmus went through a disciplinary hearing and was ultimately banned.

He didn't go through the right processes to air his grievances, World Rugby said, and was punished with a hefty nine-month sanction that meant he couldn't be anywhere near a rugby field.

At that time, listening to comments from Britain and France was interesting, and there was a strong feeling that Rassie had gone over the top. If every coach decided after a game that he would publicly pick out 10 or 15 mistakes that a referee had made against his own team, then it would become unmitigated chaos.

Whether it's criticising through sarcasm or pretending to be naïve - which Rassie is definitely not - the feeling was that Erasmus' principle behind doing what he did was wrong even if most agreed with the assessments Rassie made in that video on Berry.

There was a lot of relief from up north that he was sanctioned for that.

What has had a more long-lasting impact, though, is that Erasmus has now isolated himself and the Boks.

In putting out his tweets, he is trying to focus World Rugby's attention on refereeing errors, crusading for the Springboks and fighting for them not to be given a rough deal.

In that sense, there has been a lot of support for Rassie from the South African public, who believe that World Rugby is to blame.

Be that as it may, South Africa - without any doubt - is the least-liked team in the world at the moment, and it's because of the way Rassie has pointed fingers at referees.

Referees know they are in a tough position in a highly-paced game where it is easy to miss things and make mistakes, and Rassie has relentlessly highlighted those mistakes in a visible way on social media, launching attacks on refereeing standards.

There is a very strong feeling amongst World Rugby and the referees that they're not prepared to have this battle between themselves and one coach after every game, even when he is not overtly criticising, but sarcastically pointing out flaws.

Rassie is not stupid, and neither is World Rugby, and they know exactly what he is trying to do.

The way you manage a referee - between your captain and coach - is absolutely critical to getting 50/50 decisions going even-handedly your way and the opposition's way.

But the impression we get from Rassie is that it's always South Africa who get the short end of the stick and that we are suffering the most.

There were those injustices in the last 10 minutes against France, and, as a coach, you get very emotional about them.

Unfortunately, I'm convinced that the reason we're not getting good calls in those moments is because he keeps pointing them out and keeps on showing refereeing incompetence.

It goes right back to 2018 and that tackle on Andre Esterhuizen against England at Twickenham where, in the aftermath of that loss, Erasmus came out with a video sarcastically teaching Esterhuizen a new tackling technique, telling him he wasn't going high enough.

World Rugby has a whole list of instances where Rassie has expressed dissatisfaction through social media.

If he continues to do this, I believe we are guaranteed to continue to get bad calls from referees. There is no question that the officials are aware of these tactics and trying to protect themselves.

Why should they give an advantage to a team that has sought to embarrass them through their director of rugby?

You might win a battle where South Africans think you are being funny or clever, but the war will be lost because, ultimately, you are doing more harm than good with this approach of constant criticism.

The other concerning element is that there has been seemingly no input from SA Rugby.

I assume that Rassie reports into president Mark Alexander and CEO Jurie Roux, and they should be the ones telling him to cool off on the social media posts, but it doesn't look like that has been said.

If those conversations have happened, they haven't had the desired impact. If they haven't happened, then that is effectively supporting Rassie in what he is doing, which is even more dangerous.

If SA Rugby has signed up to all the laws and processes of World Rugby, which I presume they have, then they should be encouraging Rassie to fall in line with those rules and processes.

You can't only look at this through Springbok glasses. Can you imagine if every national coach behaved this way after every Test? It would be impossible to handle.

Whether you like World Rugby's processes or not, the fact is that everybody has to adhere to them, and failure to do so will be punished in the way that Erasmus has now been dealt with again.

You're not going to change anything through social media. All you're going to do is alienate people. It's not the way.

Sometimes you get the rub of the green in games, and sometimes you don't, and the sooner Erasmus and the Springbok management group accept that, the better.

In moments like this, there are no winners. And the only ones losing are the Boks. On the field, off the field and, once again, in the eyes of the global rugby community.
 

Stu10


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It pains me how many commentators don't appear to know the laws thoroughly, and go on and on about something that happened based on their version of the laws that is incorrect.
 
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