Springboks v Lions

[Dickie E]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIAcDwH7xyo

Disclaimers:
1. this isn't the best quality video but all I can find
2. Nic Berry isn't my favourite referee but obviously well considered to get this Test. I think he gets panicky when big calls needed.

There's a penalty awarded to Red at 22 minutes game time which is a BIG call. Game evenly poised and an early try to Green could have swung the game.

Was the penalty awarded to Red 4 a good call or does Itoje have knees resting on tackled player? There's a replay at 22:26

 

[Ian_Cook]

IMO...

PK#1. Red 7 had the first attempt to jackle, but forearms on the ground so he was not supporting his bodyweight. Ruck formed.

PK#2. Red 4 was second in with hands to an already formed ruck

PK#3. Red 4 was kneeling on the Green tackled player, so not supporting his bodyweight anyway.

That should have been a clear PK to Green for any one of those three reasons.

 

[Balones]

IMO...

PK#1. Red 7 had the first attempt to jackle, but forearms on the ground so he was not supporting his bodyweight. Ruck formed.

PK#2. Red 4 was second in with hands to an already formed ruck


PK#3. Red 4 was kneeling on the Green tackled player, so not supporting his bodyweight anyway.

That should have been a clear PK to Green for any one of those three reasons.

1 - red 7 was being played by a green player and that was why he went off feet. Would have been harsh to have penalised.
2 - difficult one for players and ref. The red 7 and green player had rolled to side so it was not obvious a ruck had actually formed. No comms from ref. But strictly speaking yes.
3 - Initially hands went on ball before knees went on player so perhaps that was why the ref gave penalty to red. Again no comms from ref. He could have got away with having a hands off call and play on if he wasn’t sure.

Overall didn’t think it was a penalty to red even when watching it live and at full speed.

A review of this refereeing performance would have given me plenty to write about in my report and discuss with the ref. Inconsistencies, communication and positioning (he missed far too many things that required TMO input) would be high on the agenda.

 

[buff]

Better video:

South Africa vs British & Irish Lions Game 1 2021 - YouTube

 

[dickell]

Thank you, Balones. I find your points about communication most interesting. In RFU-land we have become used to a constant stream of instruction/comment/advice even from the very best, eg WB, LP. By comparison the S Hemisphere refs seem almost silent, eg Jaco Peyper (a very good ref but was he at his best for SA A v Lions?) and Nic Berry.
Do we need a halfway house?

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I didn't notice many secondary signals either when he was giving penalties which for me is basic stuff.

 

[Balones]

Thank you, Balones. I find your points about communication most interesting. In RFU-land we have become used to a constant stream of instruction/comment/advice even from the very best, eg WB, LP. By comparison the S Hemisphere refs seem almost silent, eg Jaco Peyper (a very good ref but was he at his best for SA A v Lions?) and Nic Berry.
Do we need a halfway house?

When advising/coaching refs I try to emphasise ‘appropriate communication at appropriate times’ rather than mention quantity. Each game requires different amounts depending on the nature (sometimes level) of the game.

 

[dickell]

When advising/coaching refs I try to emphasise ‘appropriate communication at appropriate times’ rather than mention quantity. Each game requires different amounts depending on the nature (sometimes level) of the game.

Thank you. Yes, but there does seem to be a lack of uniformity even among the best.

 

[shebeen]

disclaimer: South african

due to covid+, neutral TMO is out and a local ref is appointed:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/who-marius-jonker-lions-v-21131840
no big deal, except for Lions coach Warren Gatland making a huge fuss about it.

come game time, TMO makes about 6/7 decisions, every single one of them goes the way of the Lions. Some of them marginal, others clear cut. when referee asks for C&O to reverse decicision, the evidence is mud.
I could list them and reference them, but all over the web already.

rub of the green, or clear pressure put on by coach/media? Should there be protection from World Rugby against this?

 

[crossref]

disclaimer: South african

due to covid+, neutral TMO is out and a local ref is appointed:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/who-marius-jonker-lions-v-21131840
no big deal, except for Lions coach Warren Gatland making a huge fuss about it.

come game time, TMO makes about 6/7 decisions, every single one of them goes the way of the Lions. Some of them marginal, others clear cut. when referee asks for C&O to reverse decicision, the evidence is mud.
I could list them and reference them, but all over the web already.

rub of the green, or clear pressure put on by coach/media? Should there be protection from World Rugby against this?

WR made a massive error, and it's totally unfair to MJ.

They have Mathieu Raynal and Ben Okeef both there, as they are reffing #2 and #3 - one of them should be TMO, and somone else come in as AR.

 

[dickell]

WR made a massive error, and it's totally unfair to MJ.

They have Mathieu Raynal and Ben Okeef both there, as they are reffing #2 and #3 - one of them should be TMO, and somone else come in as AR.

Yes. WR still has plenty of time to fly down one of the top French TMOs - no time difference and he could be there long in advance of Saturday's match.

 

[crossref]

Yes. WR still has plenty of time to fly down one of the top French TMOs - no time difference and he could be there long in advance of Saturday's match.

Is there a requirement to isolate though ?
I am thinking they may he restricted to someone who is already there

 

[Marc Wakeham]

disclaimer: South african

due to covid+, neutral TMO is out and a local ref is appointed:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/who-marius-jonker-lions-v-21131840
no big deal, except for Lions coach Warren Gatland making a huge fuss about it.

come game time, TMO makes about 6/7 decisions, every single one of them goes the way of the Lions. Some of them marginal, others clear cut. when referee asks for C&O to reverse decicision, the evidence is mud.
I could list them and reference them, but all over the web already.

rub of the green, or clear pressure put on by coach/media? Should there be protection from World Rugby against this?

If you are flying in neutral Refs and ARs there is no reason TMO can't be covered. A bit of forward planning and dubing up on duties over the three test had to be possible.

Of course WG was going to make it an issue. SHould he do so? maybe not but if the situation was reversed the RSA coaching team would have done the same.

The point is WHY put the TMO in such a no win position?

 

[didds]

If you are flying in neutral Refs and ARs there is no reason TMO can't be covered.?

And if you are flying one in - why? Why not just do it at home given modern comms etc ?

didds

 

[KoolFork]

Well said didds. All the Euro 2020 football VAR was done from a central location in Lyon (I think)

 

[Marc Wakeham]

And if you are flying one in - why? Why not just do it at home given modern comms etc ?

didds

That may well be possible. But the point still stands.

 

[Phil E]

The TMO needs to be in the TV truck where he has a bank of monitors for all the cameras in front of him.
He can then ask the editor who sits near him "show me that angle" and he points to a monitor.

Could he do it remotely...Yes.
Could he do it from home....No.
Is it so much easier if he is with the TV people...Definitely Yes.

 

[Dickie E]

The NRL bunker seems to work well

https://www.nrl.com/operations/the-officials/bunker/

 

[SimonSmith]

The NRL bunker seems to work well

https://www.nrl.com/operations/the-officials/bunker/

I've seen some of the "helpful" decisions from the bunker, last week especially. You have an interesting definition of "well"!

More seriously, the one issue with Aitch in the bunker is that the guy in the middle of the filed is occasionally hung out to dry with comms. A decision is reached, and when the players ask why, our man in the middle is left to say " I don't have the reason, I can just tell you what I have been told"

 

[Dickie E]

I've seen some of the "helpful" decisions from the bunker, last week especially. You have an interesting definition of "well"!

I'm not saying mistakes aren't made. It's the process I like. Clear & professional without all the garbled conversation.

Compare to:
"OK Bez,... alright, there's not ... uh, it's very tight but we believe from the evidence I have that 15 green was ahead of the, uh, ball when it was kicked and ahead of the player kicking ... so you need to bring it back ... uh, it was definitely in front"

A couple of clips to have a look at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR7XPA2-vrg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJCKEC3hCxE