Tackle Assist

[ChrisR]

Two defenders together bring the BC to ground. If both defenders go to ground are they both tacklers and therefore can play the ball from any direction?

 

[Dixie]

the head coach of Ecosse Sevens who simply refused to believe that a player involved in making a tackle (from the side) but who stayed on their feet still had to go through the tackle gate even if there wasn't also a tackler on the ground. ... (NOTE: Edited for additional clarity!)

From this, I suspect there may still be some confusion, despite the edit for additional clarity! Can I then pose two new scenarios?

Scenario 4: Red 12 breaks through the Blue defence and turns on the gas, going round the Blue 15. It's a race for the line, but with a long way to go. Blue 11 overhauls Red 12, grabbing him from behind and causing Red 12 to fall to ground on the 5m line, with Blue 11 still on his feet but (crucially) on the Red side of the field (i.e. still behind Red 12) when the tackled player hits the deck. Blue 11 takes a step over the tackled player while still holding Red 12's jersey (enough to prove the tackle is made, but not enough to constitute a failure to release). He is now on the correct side of the tackled player, releases him, claps his hands and jackles the ball. What is the decision? Play on, or PK against Blue 11 for incorrect entry?

Scenario 5: Red 12 breaks through the Blue defence and turns on the gas, going round the Blue 15. Blue 11, cornerflagging, overhauls Red 12, grabbing him from the side and causing Red 12 to fall to ground on the 5m line, with Blue 11 still on his feet but (crucially) still to one side of Red 12 when the tackled player hits the deck. Blue 11 takes a step to behind the tackled player while still holding Red 12's jersey (enough to prove the tackle is made, but not enough to constitute a failure to release). He is now on the correct side of the tackled player, releases him, claps his hands and jackles the ball. What is the decision? Play on, or PK against Blue 11 for incorrect entry?

- - - Updated - - -

Two defenders together bring the BC to ground. If both defenders go to ground are they both tacklers and therefore can play the ball from any direction?

yes :knuppel2:

 

[Dave Sherwin]

Two defenders together bring the BC to ground. If both defenders go to ground are they both tacklers and therefore can play the ball from any direction?

I am happy that they can (I was just going to say "Yes", but I had to do at least characters)

 

[Dave Sherwin]

Scenario 4: Red 12 breaks through the Blue defence and turns on the gas, going round the Blue 15. It's a race for the line, but with a long way to go. Blue 11 overhauls Red 12, grabbing him from behind and causing Red 12 to fall to ground on the 5m line, with Blue 11 still on his feet but (crucially) on the Red side of the field (i.e. still behind Red 12) when the tackled player hits the deck. Blue 11 takes a step over the tackled player while still holding Red 12's jersey (enough to prove the tackle is made, but not enough to constitute a failure to release). He is now on the correct side of the tackled player, releases him, claps his hands and jackles the ball. What is the decision? Play on, or PK against Blue 11 for incorrect entry?

Very hard to say on bald facts, but I would generally want to see the release before he gets to the correct side. Common tactic is to press down on the tackled player whilst jumping around with the hips so as to appear to have entered correctly. If the events happen in the exact order you state, I would most likely penalise for failure to release, but I would also feel comfortable penalizing for incorrect entry given you have stated that he takes a step over the tackled player.

Scenario 5: Red 12 breaks through the Blue defence and turns on the gas, going round the Blue 15. Blue 11, cornerflagging, overhauls Red 12, grabbing him from the side and causing Red 12 to fall to ground on the 5m line, with Blue 11 still on his feet but (crucially) still to one side of Red 12 when the tackled player hits the deck. Blue 11 takes a step to behind the tackled player while still holding Red 12's jersey (enough to prove the tackle is made, but not enough to constitute a failure to release). He is now on the correct side of the tackled player, releases him, claps his hands and jackles the ball. What is the decision? Play on, or PK against Blue 11 for incorrect entry?

Still likely to penalise for failure to release, but it sounds to me as if he has gone round the gatepost, so we may be ok on entry. I agree my original post wasn't wonderfully clear (apologies) - I generally demonstrate this with beer mats!

 

[Browner]

it's not age : it's how long since you last reffed.
it's hard to stay current if you are not involved.

In the case of my Post#4 , this Coach was a Club Referee Liaison Officer to the society ( communicating Law changes etc to his club, only 3 years ago!) And has refereed in his society in sept 2014 ( so he should be up to speed, as a L6 on this)

It's more likely he was hoping 'rank' might pressurise me, or maybe he didn't respect my law knowledge or refereeing ability....or maybe he takes his referee head off and puts his arrogant twunt head on.:shrug:

During the fixture last Saturday, I never actually had need to progress/prove tackle assist 'direction' knowledge, as the lack of any release ( let alone a 'clear' one ) was amply sufficient.

His 'posturing' to his players was to undermine me, IMHO.

 

[Womble]

Browner, More than likely that he did not understand the law ! There are not many that do !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Browner]

Two defenders together bring the BC to ground. If both defenders go to ground are they both tacklers and therefore can play the ball from any direction?

Provided they are on feet first , and they aren't "beaten by a ruck" having already clearly formed prior to their attempt to play the ball , then yes.

 

[ChrisR]

.... and they are not incapacitated by the tackle, or ....

 

[Dixie]

it sounds to me as if he has gone round the gatepost, so we may be ok on entry.

And this is the bit I find interesting. It suggests to me that this idea of the "gate" with its posts has a number of possible interpretations, and we can therefore use the same words to mean totally different things.

The "gate" is a concept intended to help us understand how players who are not the tackler may enter the tackle zone. That zone is not clearly defined, but is generally accepted to encompass a radius of about 1m from the ball carrier. The problem with the tackle assist is that like the tackler, he is already within the tackle zone before, and at the moment that, the tackle takes place. The question is then whether he needs to leave the zone before he plays the ball. Dave Sherwin is ready to accept (albeit reluctantly) that a Tackle Assist may get legal by entering through the gateposts while still being within arms' length of the tackled player. But by retaining a loose grip on the tackled player, it is clear that he never left the tackle zone - so he could not have re-entered it through the gate.

To me, this is the heart of the problem. 15.6(c) addresses the obligations of the Tackle Assist very clearly:

[LAWS]15.6(c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

There is nothing there about leaving the tackle zone - and by implication, nothing about how they subsequently re-enter it. Indeed, the contrary is true. Once the Tackle Assist has released the tackled player and/or the ball, he is IMMEDIATELY at liberty to play the ball, provided he does so from his own side of the tackle. It must inevitably follow that there is no restriction on how the Tackle Assist gets to his own side of the tackle - skirting around the tackled player, going over the tackled player or any other approach.

 

[ChrisR]

To me, this is the heart of the problem. 15.6(c) addresses the obligations of the Tackle Assist very clearly:

15.6(c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick

There is nothing there about leaving the tackle zone - and by implication, nothing about how they subsequently re-enter it. Indeed, the contrary is true. Once the Tackle Assist has released the tackled player and/or the ball, he is IMMEDIATELY at liberty to play the ball, provided he does so from his own side of the tackle. It must inevitably follow that there is no restriction on how the Tackle Assist gets to his own side of the tackle - skirting around the tackled player, going over the tackled player or any other approach.

.... and there you have it. A player participating in the tackle who remains on their feet must only get to their side of the ball.

 

[crossref]

Marauder - are you Dixie in disguise?

 

[ChrisR]

Nah ... just a bit of sucking up.

 

[ChrisR]

There is another article by Murray Kinsella on The Rugby Site titled "A closer look at the rucking rules". Again it involves BJ Botha but with Ian Davies as the referee.

Access the site and the article here: http://www.therugbysite.com/blog/breakdown/a-closer-look-at-the-rucking-rules

The temporary (ends Jan 21st) sign in code is reffingrugby@gmail.com and the password is r3f3r33.

Check out the embedded video. Has the ruck formed? Does Botha have access to the ball?

The next embedded clip is McCaw. Does he release? Is he 'on his feet'?

 

[Dixie]

Marauder - are you Dixie in disguise?

No-one has ever seen us in the same room ....

 

[OB..]

To me, this is the heart of the problem. 15.6(c) addresses the obligations of the Tackle Assist very clearly:

15.6(c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick

For me the bit in bold clearly says he must enter the tackle zone through the gate.

My understanding has always been that at a tackle, only the ball carrier and any tacklers are legitimately inside the zone to start with. All "Other Players" must enter through the gate, and that includes tackle assists.

 

[Browner]

So,
Tackle Assist doesn't have to vacate the 'tackle/zone' that he helped create and come through the 'gate' as other 'non involved in the tackle' players do, all he has to do is ensure he plays the ball from behind the ball or behind the tackled player.

If you disagree, say & say why ?

 

[ChrisR]

Through the gate from either direction? That is, can a tackle assist, in the tackle zone but on the ops side of the ball, simply step back over the body of the BC to be on his side of ball & body?

Seems to me that there is no specific prohibition of that.

 

[ChrisR]

No-one has ever seen us in the same room ....

We are both from a long line of one-name celebrities.

 

[SimonSmith]

Ruling 1 of 2010

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]In the Designated Members opinion the Law amendment, Law 15 6 (c) reflects the Rulings 13 – 2008, 3 and 8 2004. In order to clarify the situation the Designated Members’ comments are included below.[/FONT]

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player who is brought to the ground when carrying the ball is a tackled player. (Definition)[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player who goes to ground when tackling a player is known as a tackler. (Definition)[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player who brings a player to ground who is carrying the ball is not a tackler (Definition), however, this player has completed a tackle.[/FONT]

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]A tackler must release the tackled player (Law 15.4 (a)). [/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]The tackled player must pass or release the ball (Law 15.5(b)).[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]The tackled player may release the ball by putting the ball on the ground in any direction (Law 15.5 (c)).[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]The tackled player may release the ball by pushing the ball along the ground (Law 15.5 (d)).[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]However, if opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball (Law 15.5 (e)).[/FONT]

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players arriving at a tackle may play the ball providing they are on their feet (Law 15.6 (b)).[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players who were attached to the player who is tackled, and who remain on their feet, must release the player and the ball (Law 15.6 (c)) and then may play the ball in accordance with Law 15.6 (b).[/FONT]

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Law Ruling 8 of 2004 stated that the players who are not tacklers are covered by Law 15.7(c) (2008 Law) and those players can only play the ball if they approach from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal-line.[/FONT]

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]To approach behind the tackled player means the tackle has taken place and the revised Law 15.6 (c) (2009) makes that very clear.[/FONT]

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Law 15.6 (c) as written reflected the views of the Designated Members in 2004 and now, Law 15.6 (c) is part of the Law amendments circulated to all Unions in 2009 and was accepted by the Rugby Committee and Council.

[/FONT]

 

[thepercy]

So, though I am not a coach, but putting my "coaches hat" on, would it be sound advise to tackler assists to take a knee so as to no longer be required to exit the tackle area and reenter through the gate? Does dropping to a knee momentarily, constitute going to ground?