Tackled players pops ball to an opponent.

[Taff]

Of course not, but you have usually placed it outside the tackle. If you place it within the tackle zone that is obviously different from a pass anyway.

But this is my point; if I was to place it just 50cm behind me, I reckon that's still in the tackle zone - ie gate still applies.

 

[Pegleg]

i don't really agree with the rest of your post as there is no need for blue 6 to be retiring at all, so whether he is retiring or not doesn't really matter.

what does matter is whether - in order to catch the pop pass he could see was coming - he actually entered the tackle zone from wrong side.

Perhaps my wording could be more accurate if he runs (to where he is going) via the "tackle zone" then I have an issue If he is not and he collects the ball out side it I have no issue at all - He's legal. If he's in the tackle zone by default and not design. I think it would be hard to ping him.

 

[Ian_Cook]

But this is my point; if I was to place it just 50cm behind me, I reckon that's still in the tackle zone - ie gate still applies.

But placing is not the same as passing, and I think some here are still trying to apply an "offside mentality" to the gate

When an offside line disappears, players who were offside at that moment will infringe if they take part in the game before being made onside again. The offside line persists for those players, but not for any players who were already onside.

When the gate disappears, ALL player are legal to take part in the game. The gate does not persist for ANY player beyond the moment at which it disappears.

The moment the ball at a tackle is no longer on the ground due to a player in the gate picking it up, the gate disappears. Same applies if the tackled player passes the ball. The gate exists only from the time the ball carrier is tackled to the moment the ball is off the ground. The very instant that the ball leaves the hands of the tackled player when he PASSES the ball, ANY player can play it regardless of where they are on the field (unless of course they are a team-mate ahead of the passer).

 

[crossref]

Law reference for your last paragraph?

 

[OB..]

But this is my point; if I was to place it just 50cm behind me, I reckon that's still in the tackle zone - ie gate still applies.

You suggested there was no difference between passing and placing. I insist that there is. If you place the ball, you have a hand on it, controlling it. What happens next is not part of placing, and you may place it inside or outside the tackle zone (which does not include the 1 metre "near" area). If you keep your hand on the ball, that is allowed for steadying, but not if you use it to prevent an opponent from lifting it, and not if you pull the ball back into the tackle zone (you are then playing the ball on the ground).

However when you pass the ball you release it completely and have no further contact. It is very easy to distinguish the two.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Law reference for your last paragraph?

No law reference required (show me where the word "tackle gate" appears anywhere in the Lawbook anyway)

Its just application and plain commonsense. Explain to me how it can be any other way and still maintain consistency.

Would you PK a retiring player who tackled an opponent who has picked up the ball in a tackle? If you would, then you still don't understand the difference between the gate ad an offside line.

 

[Browner]

i disagree.

I think that if a tackled player throws the ball vertically upwards then it can only be caught by a player coming in through his gate.

If on the other hand he throws it clear of the tackle area it can be caught by anyone

I'm more supporting of the idea that the tackle zone ends when the ball is passed, irrespective of the direction.

Passed being different to: being placed or released onto the ground.

 

[crossref]

Your use of the word 'retiring player' seems to suggest you don't know the difference
The phrase retiring player as used in the Laws refers to am offside player getting himself back onside

 

[Pegleg]

I think I have already suggested my wording was in error. You seem not to understand that (no need for a smiley!)

 

[Ian_Cook]

Your use of the word 'retiring player' seems to suggest you don't know the difference
The phrase retiring player as used in the Laws refers to am offside player getting himself back onside

For me, "a retiring player" is, always has been and always will be, a player who is heading back towards his own goal line. A retiring player, may or may not be offside, or may or may not be simply getting himself into a support position or a defensive position. Just because he is retiring toward his own goal-line does not mean he is or was offside.

The OP used the term as I do. He called Blue 6 a retiring player... ("the ball is caught by Blue 6 who is retiring back")

Now in the OP's scenario, if Blue 6 had been offside then that is what you would PK him for!!


ETA:

Here is a Law reference that uses the world retire, and which has nothing to do with offside...

[LAWS]9.B.3 THE OPPOSING TEAM
(a) All players of the opposing team must retire to their goal line and must not overstep that line
until the kicker begins the approach to kick or starts to kick. When the kicker does this, they
may charge or jump to prevent a goal but must not be physically supported by other players
in these actions.[/LAWS]

In this case, retire means "go back". So, retire is not always used to denote an offside player going back

ETAA: But wait, there's more...

[LAWS]21.4 (g) Kick taken in the in-goal. If a player retires into in-goal to take a penalty or free kick
awarded in the field of play and a defending player by foul play prevents an opponent from
scoring a try a penalty try is awarded

21.4 (h) Out of play in the in-goal. If a player retires into in-goal to take a penalty or free kick
awarded in the field of play and following the kick the ball goes into touch-in-goal, or on or
over the dead ball line, or a defending player makes the ball dead before it has crossed the
goal line, a 5-metre scrum is awarded. The attacking team throws in the ball.

21.8 (g) Free kick taken in the in-goal. If a free kick has been awarded and the player retires into
in-goal to take it and the opponents charge and prevent the kick from being taken, a 5-
metre scrum is ordered. The attacking team throws in the ball. If a free kick is taken in the
in-goal, an opponent who legitimately plays it there can score a try.[/LAWS]

 

[Taff]

The law does not bother to define when a tackle ends, hence our problem.

This isn't meant to appear flippant, but I just assumed it ended when another phase of play took over.

... Under your rule, a tackled player could lay the ball back almost a metre, and leave it in clear space on the ground away from the bodies with defenders being required to approach it through the pile. Actually, if you include the 1m "near" zone in the tackled zone, it becomes legal to run up the side of the pile of bodies, but nobody allows that.

Not quite, because opponents would also have to approach through their own gate. Ie the 1m could extend the length of the tackle zone, but not the width.

View attachment 3007

(Seeing if it works on Dickie?)

Perhaps I'm thick, but you'll have to explain that one to me.

You suggested there was no difference between passing and placing. I insist that there is. If you place the ball, you have a hand on it, controlling it. What happens next is not part of placing, and you may place it inside or outside the tackle zone (which does not include the 1 metre "near" area).

So if a tackled player placed the ball back say 20 cm behind him and took his mits off it, would you say we were still dealing with a tackle or open play?

If its a tackle, I don't understand why we would treat it any different if the tackled player ballsed up a pass and it landed just 20 cm behind him.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Perhaps I'm thick, but you'll have to explain that one to me.

Its a visual pun!

Ever heard of or watched a TV comedy game show called "Who's Line is it Anyway?" ?

 

[Dickie E]

Thanks, Ian - I'd noticed that Dickie E hadn't answered that point.

Sorry, by referring to me in 3rd person I didn't realise it was a question addressed to me.

Provided the Red 11 pass wasn't forward and noting that 1 metre isn't a big distance I would be happy that Red 12 came through the gate.

However, if Red 11 pops the ball vertically and a Blue player is in such a position to catch it without having come through his gate then I can see only 2 possibilities:

1. the Blue player was tackle assist and is hovering over Red 11, or
2. the Blue player is retiring by intentionally traversing the 1 metre tackle zone.

In either case, if his presence has an impact on play then he is liable to penalty.

 

[Dickie E]

I'm more supporting of the idea that the tackle zone ends when the ball is passed, irrespective of the direction.

Passed being different to: being placed or released onto the ground.

I see the "tackle zone" as being a vertical cylinder with a 1 metre radius. If the ball is passed, placed, pushed, kicked, released [add in verb of your choice] outside this cylinder then the tackle is over. If it is not, then the tackle is in progress and entering players need to come through the gate in order to compete.

If you place the ball, you have a hand on it, controlling it.

I do not accept OB..'s contention that "placed" is somehow a special case because the tackled player must have his hand on the ball. No controlling hand on ball in this picture:

 

[menace]

Its a visual pun!

Ever heard of or watched a TV comedy game show called "Who's Line is it Anyway?" ?

Yep...sorry Taff. It was a crossover from here.... http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?18044-I-reckon-we-need-two-more-emoticons

I was in one of those weird moods when posting that, where my humour was not aligned with any planet in the universe! (Long working week made me do it!)

 

[Ian_Cook]

I see the "tackle zone" as being a vertical cylinder with a 1 metre radius. If the ball is passed, placed, pushed, kicked, released [add in verb of your choice] outside this cylinder then the tackle is over. If it is not, then the tackle is in progress and entering players need to come through the gate in order to compete.

.. from the iRB's "Rugby Ready" book.

I see the "tackle zone" as if it were lines painted on the ground. They appear when a tackle is made, and disappear when the tackle ends.

If the tackled player passes or throws the ball in any direction, any opponent with his feet outsize the dotted line is free to catch it.

 

[Dickie E]

If the tackled player passes or throws the ball in any direction, any opponent with his feet outsize the dotted line is free to catch it.

Have to agree cos its kinda what I said.

So do you agree then that any player with feet inside dotted line can only catch the ball if he has come through the gate?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Have to agree cos its kinda what I said.

So do you agree then that any player with feet inside dotted line can only catch the ball if he has come through the gate?

That would depend on whether or not he started outside the tackle zone.

I don't see the tackle zone as having infinite height. When the ball is popped, the gate disappears the moment the ball leaves the hands of the tackled player. Its the same as if a team-mate of the tackled player had picked it up. Unlike an offside line, the influence of the gate does not persist beyond its disappearance.

 

[Dickie E]

That would depend on whether or not he started outside the tackle zone.

why? (msf)

 

[Ian_Cook]

why? (msf)

You snipped the part of my post that explains why