Tackled players pops ball to an opponent.

[Dickie E]

I don't see the tackle zone as having infinite height. When the ball is popped, the gate disappears the moment the ball leaves the hands of the tackled player. Its the same as if a team-mate of the tackled player had picked it up. Unlike an offside line, the influence of the gate does not persist beyond its disappearance.

Interesting. So riddle me this:

1. tackle assist has released ball carrier, is over the ball and facing his own goal line.
2. ball carrier attempts to pop pass to team mate
3. tackle assist sticks hand out and knocks ball backwards.

Play on?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Interesting. So riddle me this:

1. tackle assist has released ball carrier, is over the ball and facing his own goal line.
2. ball carrier attempts to pop pass to team mate
3. tackle assist sticks hand out and knocks ball backwards.

Play on?

Does the tackled player let go of the pass? If so, play on (the tackle gate ended when the tackled player let go of the pass)

Does the tackled player attempt to pass but before he can do so, the TA knocks the ball out of his hands? If so, PK against TA for playing the ball from the wrong side (tackle gate still exists because tackled player still has possession of the ball).

Of course, you could always pre-empt the whole thing by trigger-fingering the TA for taking up the space! :biggrin:

IMO. YMMV

The thing is, I see where you are coming from, but both your view and my view are equally valid because there is no actual Law that covers this situation. And there wont be until the Lawmakers have the good sense to ...

1. Recognize in Law that the tackle is a phase of play and define when it ends (we already know when it starts)
2. Define the gate and who it applies to (and I mean use the term "tackle gate", complete with a diagram, in the LotG)
3. Define a Tackle Assist, and specify what he can and cannot do.
4. Include "taking the space" as a Law and specify a sanction

 

[RobLev]

Sorry, by referring to me in 3rd person I didn't realise it was a question addressed to me.

I'd raised both 15.6(d) and (e) in my #21; your #22 answered the 15.6(e) point but ignored 15.6(d).

Provided the Red 11 pass wasn't forward and noting that 1 metre isn't a big distance I would be happy that Red 12 came through the gate.

However, if Red 11 pops the ball vertically and a Blue player is in such a position to catch it without having come through his gate then I can see only 2 possibilities:

1. the Blue player was tackle assist and is hovering over Red 11, or
2. the Blue player is retiring by intentionally traversing the 1 metre tackle zone.

In either case, if his presence has an impact on play then he is liable to penalty.

My question was in relation to a sideways pop. but...

Noting that Red 11 was presumably running with the ball and a rugby player can easily be covering 8m in a second flat-out, you've missed:

3. the Blue player was chasing down Red 11 from behind, his team-mate cuts Red 11 down and Red 11 pops the ball up into his hands before he has the chance to take any avoiding action - by far the most likely scenario, IMHO, for a vertical pop.

 

[Blackberry]

Here's what I do
The gate only applies to players who want to engage in the tackle as it develops.
A retiring player cannot be offside
A pass (even a bad one) ends the tackle.

I have had bad passes which land back in the tackle, I simply had to manage them. On one occasion I gave a knock on, on another I invoked masterly inactivity for a second and the situation sorted itself out safely.

 

[Balones]

It is very clear and simple.
The gate applies when the ball is on the floor (On a body if the ball carrier has been turned onto his back etc.) within the tackle area or near it.
Once the ball leaves the floor we either have a player in possession or we have had a pass. In which case play on. Until the IRB alter the laws or say anything more specific that is how the scenario should be interpreted even if it looks wrong.
Anything else confuses the issue - there is enough ambiguity in determining the size of the tackle area by the ref as it stands.

 

[Dickie E]

It is very clear and simple.

this is when the alarm bells start to ring

 

[Ian_Cook]

I invoked masterly inactivity for a second and the situation sorted itself out safely.

"Masterly inactivity" is a very good tool to have in your toolbox. Every referee should own one!

 

[crossref]

I have had bad passes which land back in the tackle, I simply had to manage them. On one occasion I gave a knock on, on another I invoked masterly inactivity for a second and the situation sorted itself out safely.

I like that

 

[The Fat]

I invoked masterly inactivity for a second and the situation sorted itself out safely.

That would make an excellent forum signature:biggrin:

 

[Dickie E]

Once the ball leaves the floor we either have a player in possession or we have had a pass. In which case play on.

I keep trying to find that bit in the book. All I can find is this:

[LAWS](c)
Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.[/LAWS]

 

[menace]

As RobLev says....15.6d must mean something?
Ie
[LAWS](d)
At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
[/LAWS]
If it's not to mean that a pop pass that has not moved a metre away then it can't be played at by the opposition unless they've come through the gate, then what does it mean?

Ps: mind you the definition of 'near' when it happens at speed is subjective (even 1 m isn't meant to be precisely applied?). I enterpret it as a 'visibly' far enough distance away from the tackle zone.

 

[Pegleg]

It is very clear and simple.
The gate applies when the ball is on the floor (On a body if the ball carrier has been turned onto his back etc.) within the tackle area or near it.
Once the ball leaves the floor we either have a player in possession or we have had a pass. In which case play on. Until the IRB alter the laws or say anything more specific that is how the scenario should be interpreted even if it looks wrong.
Anything else confuses the issue - there is enough ambiguity in determining the size of the tackle area by the ref as it stands.

I gt very concerned when I read stuff like this. Clearly it is far from clear and simple. This thread is ample proof of that.

Can you support that in Law or with any directive / clarification? Why "should" we accept your interpretation?

 

[OB..]

This isn't meant to appear flippant, but I just assumed it ended when another phase of play took over.

That means you have to define all the other phases of play (which I have long advocated). Formal definition of open play?

Not quite, because opponents would also have to approach through their own gate. Ie the 1m could extend the length of the tackle zone, but not the width.

I don't see how "near" can be taken to apply to only one direction.

So if a tackled player placed the ball back say 20 cm behind him and took his mits off it, would you say we were still dealing with a tackle or open play?

If he had placed it beyind the tackle zone, yes.

If its a tackle, I don't understand why we would treat it any different if the tackled player ballsed up a pass and it landed just 20 cm behind him.

Placing means having a hand on the ball. Subsequently the player may release (not an integral part of placing, since players are allowed to keep a hand on the ball to steady it).

The outcome may or may not be the same for place-and-release as for tackle, but the two actions are different and should not be conflated.

I think we have conclusively proved that the law is inadeqaute. Not unusual, and the poor ref is left to pick up the pieces. Doubtless he will get different advice in different areas.

 

[crossref]

As RobLev says....15.6d must mean something?
Ie
[LAWS](d)
At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
[/LAWS]
If it's not to mean that a pop pass that has not moved a metre away then it can't be played at by the opposition unless they've come through the gate, then what does it mean?
.

I think menace and roblev nail it.

 

[Browner]

Slight tangent ....... 1m radius from where exactly?

The place of shoulder impact/ hand grasp?, or the ball? ( these could be c.1.75m apart)

or....other?

 

[Taff]

Slight tangent ....... 1m radius from where exactly? The place of shoulder impact/ hand grasp?, or the ball? ( these could be c.1.75m apart) or....other?

Funnily enough I was thinking about that last night. My initial feeling was that the 1m be taken from the ball, but perhaps it would be fairer to take it from the centre of the tackle ie the bodies on the ground.

 

[ChrisR]

There are two things missing from Law 15: Workable definition of the 'tackle area' and definition of when the tackle ends.

I suggest dumping the 1m rule and adopting a definition of 'tackle area' as the area bounded by the doted lines taken from the IRB Rugby Ready diagram. (Thank you Ian)

View attachment 3013

The tackle event would end when the ball leaves the tackle area as defined above or another phase starts such as a ruck. Placing or passing the ball within the tackle area does not end the tackle event. Until the tackle ends all players are governed by the existing laws of 15.

Now, back to the OP and the defender chasing after the BC who gets tackled and pops up the ball, within the tackle area, right into the chasers path who instinctively catches it. A PK for entering the tackle area from the wrong side seems very harsh. However if the ball had been placed on the deck and that defender had then played it we wouldn't have any empathy.

Therefor I'd suggest that we need some flexibility in the sanction (scrum, as in accidental off-side) but not play on.

If the pass, or placement of the ball, leaves the tackle area then there is no issue.

These are my thoughts after resisting the temptation to jump in much earlier.

For those asking for law references I suggest reading the first lines of this post again.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Very good Marauder, and while we're at it lets clean up another little anomaly in the Law.

When there is a tackle, and a player enters the zone from the side and does not attempt to play the ball, and instead, cleans out an opponent, do we PK him?

Yes?

Is that what the Law says?

No?

This is the bit of Law that has become the Tackle Gate & Zone

[LAWS]LAW 15.6 (d) At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the
ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal
line.[/LAWS]

The Law assumes that everyone who enters the tackle zone does so for the purpose of playing the ball. In the modern game, this is far from reality. In the strict wording of the Law, side entry only applies if the player actually plays the ball. Of course, if we allowed this, the tackle zone would become even more of a chaotic mess.

I think a proper definition of the Tackle Zone, with clear, unequivocal descriptions of who it applies to and how and when it is applies would be a great step forward in cleaning up the breakdown.

 

[Rushforth]

I think a proper definition of the Tackle Zone, with clear, unequivocal descriptions of who it applies to and how and when it is applies would be a great step forward in cleaning up the breakdown.

So you would also agree that a clear, uneqivocal description in Law of the forward pass would help, when 95% of spectators are flabbergasted by the concept of momentum/relativity, and Dutch referees who do understand the concept want it unequivocal?

 

[chbg]

Very good Marauder, and while we're at it lets clean up another little anomaly in the Law.

When there is a tackle, and a player enters the zone from the side and does not attempt to play the ball, and instead, cleans out an opponent, do we PK him?

Yes?

Is that what the Law says?

10.4(f)