Talking points from England v Wales V2

[SimonSmith]

RE angles and TMO - this stuff about needing more than one angle is bollocks. If you can clearly see what happened from one angle - why do you need another angle?

The citing officer and panel that banned Francis for 8 weeks had no other views because there weren't any - and I know this because after the game I went to the BBC truck to ask if there were any more angles that showed it and they confirmed this. They used the very same shot we all saw, which showed all you needed to see. Furthermore, I've never heard a RU official say to a player that he might have subsequent action taken against him. This is what happens in RL when players are put on report.

This was a cop out - pure and simple and not calling it so is ludicrous.

Very fair. And WR Elite officials getting contact around the eye area very wrong not for the first time. Eh Bryce "at least a yellow" Lawrence.

I do wonder about the psychology of it - and I'm not excusing anyone; they need to stand up and do their jobs. But gouging - and to an extent biting - are seen by most as being at the far end of the disgusting scale. To be branded a gouger should have severe reputational impact. It should be the sort of thing that sticks with you for life (except if you're an England hooker). No matter how good Schalk Burger became, he will always be that gouging ***t to me.

And I wonder if referees steer away from carding because of that fact. Punching - yeah, that's straightforward and in some ways a reputation enhancer. Stamping - oh, for the good old days. Gouging - whoops. Not sure I want to be labeling anyone like that. Best leave that to someone else to decide...

 

[crossref]

Not to resurrect the discussion as I note the posts were removed, so this is just for interest, however Gats has weighed in:
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/3http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/358161785816178

and now someone has had a word with him and he has weighed out again

Warren Gatland apologises for referring to Joe Marler insult as ‘just banter’

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...er-just-banter-samson-lee-wales-england-rugby

 

[OB..]

RE angles and TMO - this stuff about needing more than one angle is bollocks. If you can clearly see what happened from one angle - why do you need another angle?

The citing officer and panel that banned Francis for 8 weeks had no other views because there weren't any - and I know this because after the game I went to the BBC truck to ask if there were any more angles that showed it and they confirmed this. They used the very same shot we all saw, which showed all you needed to see. Furthermore, I've never heard a RU official say to a player that he might have subsequent action taken against him. This is what happens in RL when players are put on report.

This was a cop out - pure and simple and not calling it so is ludicrous.

My feeling at the time was that Joubert was talked out of it by the TMO, and presumably went along with that view in order to retain harmony, trust etc. It had been spotted and drawn to his attention by the TMO. Left to himself I thought Joubert would have given a red card, hence his comment about possible further action ("Citing Officer please HELP!")

However it was still a cop-out by both of them

 

[crossref]

it can't have helped CJ that his very last game was mired with so much controversy --- he couldn't have felt very enusiastic about the idea of a RC.

Indeed he could have potentially have issued 2RC at the game -- I wonder if he heard Joe Marler's crack at Lee? although I can easily imagine he didn't really hear it, or even if he did he wouldn't have necessarily clocked its significance (no idea how it would sound to South African ears)

 

[crossref]

So Marler has escaped a ban for the forearm incident
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/mar/16/england-joe-marler-escapes-punishment-wales


Given that, and given's Gatland's rowing back from his remark this morning --- seems to me they are preparing the way for a ban for the insult. It would not have been helpful to have a second ban clouding the issue (if they had been concurrent bans it would have been seen as let off, but consecutive bans and it all adds up to too long banned)

Of course I may be reading too much into it

 

[Pegleg]

I think you are correct crossref. WR bottling it again! 4 weeks for the verbal and 4 weeks for the forearm would have been right for me. But that was not going to happen, was it.

 

[crossref]

it's also helpful for CJ, it's not great for the ref or TMO if three RC are missed


hmm another thought - they told us that the 48 hour citing limit doesn't apply - because [reasons] - and therefore they have all the time in the world ..... Surely they wouldn't let this hiatus last into next week...

 

[L'irlandais]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35827133
Nope. No ban for the verbal abuse either.

England may have won the championship this year, her players have brought the game into disrepute however.
So much for a game for hooligans played by gentlemen. The man is no more a gent than his mouthy coach is.

 

[Rushforth]

The man is no more a gent than his mouthy coach is.

Look, I'm all in favour of calling a spade a spade, but if you want to digress on the matter of ungentlemanly conduct, then perhaps you shouldn't be using the adjective I highlighted in your comment.

Oh, it is just banter to call someone "mouthy"?

 

[crossref]

hmm - I wonder why that took them four days....

 

[JohnP]

So,take England vs Wales out of it, as refs if you had seen in real time the forearm /elbow strike to face /head as we see on the replays what would your decision have been. Do you deem it not worthy of a red card?

 

[crossref]

So what the 6 N committee are saying is
[LAWS]Verbal abuse of a player based on religion, race, colour, national or ethnic origin, sexual orientation or otherwise carries a minimum sanction of a four-week suspension. Unless the abuse was uttered in the heat of the moment[/LAWS]

I guess you could argue that almost anything that happens s in a game of rugby is heat if the moment

 

[Pegleg]

Why are any of us surprised? World rugby up to its usual disciplinary nonsense.

 

[Ian_Cook]

It would not have been helpful to have a second ban clouding the issue (if they had been concurrent bans it would have been seen as let off, but consecutive bans and it all adds up to too long banned)

Funnily enough, I was asked a question about this on another forum...

I'm just wondering what happens in a case like Joe Marler's.

He has been cited for 2 separate incidents, so my question is this: If found guilty of both, does he have 2 bans added together? Or is it a case of incident A warrants x weeks which is longer than incident B, therefore the ban will be that length.

and my answer...

Usually, the suspensions are served concurrently, i.e. he will serve the longest of the two suspensions. However, that doesn't mean he has escaped punishment for the lesser offence. It is still recorded as a suspension on his disciplinary record, which will come into play if he his cited and found guilty at another time, e.g.

Fred Smith gets sited for a late, high tackle and a punch in two separate incidents. He gets five weeks for the punch and two weeks for the tackle. He will serve a five week suspension

Later in the season, he gets red carded for a similar late high tackle. He is found guilty, and the Judicial Officer now looks at his previous record. It will show he has a previous suspension in the same season and on the same charge, his chances of mitigation are small, and he gets four weeks where he might have only got two without the previous.

 

[didds]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35827133
Nope. No ban for the verbal abuse either.

England may have won the championship this year, her players have brought the game into disrepute however.
.

Two players? If you include Cole?

Or do you mean by "her players" ie plural you actually mean ,... err... one. ?

As for the coach - its trash talk bullshit, blather and bollocks.

Mind you, maybe Marler should have just blatantly taken out Sexton off the ball - that might have been far more acceptable maybe?

go with whatever whatever makes you feel better inside. But I'm not sure hwta the likes of Itoje, Jospeh or even Hartlley have done to be included in the above puerile jibe.

didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

We've already had to close one thread on this match

I know there is nothing quite like an England v Wales spat to get the blood temperature up, but there is some interesting stuff in this thread, so lets not turn it into another shitfight please!

 

[crossref]

Snort

 

[dave_clark]

So,take England vs Wales out of it, as refs if you had seen in real time the forearm /elbow strike to face /head as we see on the replays what would your decision have been. Do you deem it not worthy of a red card?

at those levels i doubt it would be any more than a penalty.

things may differ at more social levels of course, i don't watch much non-elite rugby these days.

 

[TheBFG]

It was more of a shove than a strike (I'm not getting a dictionary out to look at the difference), depending on the temper of a game, to me that would be a stern chat upgraded to PK or even PK/YC as I said above.

 

[crossref]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35827133
Nope. No ban for the verbal abuse either.
.

Based on the quotes in the press I think that's a very disappointing response from the committee.

(Can anyone find the full text of what they said?)

It seems that they couldn't even bring themselves to say that Marler's conduct was unacceptable, the strongest thing they seem to have said is that it is "aware of the seriousness of Mr Marler's comment and does not in anyway condone what was said" Note that they don't actually say that Marler's remark was an offence under the rules.
I am guessing that
- they can't admit that it was a breach, because they would then have to explain why 4-week ban doesn't apply
- they don't want to say it wasn't a breach because, well, it was.

It's a pretty poor show. (but I stand to be corrected if the full text says anything different)