[Law] Tap penalty to player already running: allowed?

[Decorily]

The laws said it was illegal until 2018 because it was dangerous so dangerous it remains.

If the law book specifically stated this was illegal in 2018 (I'll take your word for it. ) then it is still illegal because the law hasn't been changed!

 

[Jz558]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFoygksnTXo

Interesting video (made before the 2018 wording change though)

 

[crossref]

If the law book specifically stated this was illegal in 2018 (I'll take your word for it. ) then it is still illegal because the law hasn't been changed!

Of course when I pointed out it had been changed people queued up to tell me that, no, the law never really applied to a single person !

 

[L'irlandais]

Why not ?

He is free to run around in circles or straight lines or wherever he wants, as long as he stays behind the line .

I don't see any problems with players who happen to be deep running forward as fast and as far as they can to defend the quick tap (indeed I would expect them to)

At the risk of repeating myself:
[LAWS]Law 20.16 As soon as the kicker initiates movement to kick, the opposing team may charge and try to prevent the free-kick being taken by tackling the kicker or to block the kick.[/LAWS]This says specifically the defenders may charge “as soon as”. Which I take to mean, not before the tap. So no you cannot allow a defender to charge as long as he doesn’t cross the offside line before the tap. It only works for the attackers 8 because they have a prearranged signal. How could a defender possibly hope to get the timing right on that. Any quick witted 9 would let him cross the goal line (and so offside) before then tapping and going using the retreating defender to block any wouldbe tacklers and worm over the line from close range himself, letting the attacking 8 be a dummy runner to draw furyher defenders away from himself.

As I recall you felt

the idea of a one man Cavalry Charge was always a bit odd.

Not us. I think dangerous play needs to be discouraged, whether it be a single player charging or a flying wedge of players bound together.

 

[crossref]

That Law is for a FK and governs the moment that defenders are allowed to encroach beyond 10m

In both a FK and PK defenders who are more than 10m away are perfectly entitled to come forward up to the 10m limit

 

[L'irlandais]

But clearly not at full tilt because he will be deliberately offside unless some freak of timing allows him get to the goalline at the precise second the 9 taps and goes. That in itself could be seen as reckless and dangerous, he will be unable to stop and flatten the scrumhalf after he has popped the ball to his 8 or worse still both eights will have a head on collision with or without the ball. You are being silly now.

Yes defenders are allowed to fan out laterally to defend their line. So yeah a full back futher off in the ingoal is perfectly entitled to wander up to the goalline to defend. No defenders are not allowed charge before the kicker begins his run up, which is instantaneous for a quick tap.

 

[crossref]

If he crosses the line we play advantage and move the mark 10m

Shrug, this is getting silly !
Defenders at a PK are allowed to move about as much as they like, providing they stay behind their offside line .

And indeed they all do so, organising their defence

 

[L'irlandais]

The OP says it was a quickly taken penalty on the 5m line, you can’t walk them back 10.
Allowed to move and organize their defense I agree entirely. But they are specifically not allowed to charge before the tap. If he charges full tilt across the line at a static 9 five meters out, you will need to stop play to stretcher off the unfortunate scrumhalf before continuing play. In all likelihood he will flatten the 9 before he has taken the quick tap and you can probaly fill out a red card report to boot for recklessness.

 

[Decorily]

The OP says it was a quickly taken penalty on the 5m line, you can’t walk them back 10.
Allowed to move and organize their defense I agree entirely. But they are specifically not allowed to charge before the tap. If he charges full tilt across the line at a static 9 five meters out, you will need to stop play to stretcher off the unfortunate scrumhalf before continuing play. In all likelihood he will flatten the 9 before he has taken the quick tap and you can probaly fill out a red card report to boot for recklessness.

I think you are confused/unclear on the difference between what is, and is not, allowed for Penalties and Free Kicks. The requirements for defenders are different.

Otherwise if a charging (onside) defender puts themselves in an offside position then deal with it. But you cannot deny them the right to run forward, while remaining onside, based on the fact that it may be 'difficult ' to get their timing right.

 

[L'irlandais]

I accept your opinion, so show me where I am wrong. (They can legitimately charge a free kick, but not a PK). A defender may run forward to defend his line, but anyone charging full tilt isn’t going to be stopping at the goalline are they? Anyway, they are not allowed to charge a penalty kick, so would you let them charge the kicker in this case?

 

[crossref]

You can't penalise someone because it looks as if he is about to cross the line.

Only if he crosses it

(Bit If he crosses it at full pace, charging forward that certainly feels like a YC to me )

 

[Decorily]

.......but anyone charging full tilt isn’t going to be stopping at the goalline are they?

I've no idea....but as stated already you cannot penalise them for something that might or might not happen.

 

[L'irlandais]

The thing about quick tap penalties is

...they are quick. The defense scarcely have time to retreat to the goalline, let alone go further into the ingoal to get enough space to build up a head of steam. I can not ever recall seeing something as described by crossref, a defender charging full steam ahead at the scrumhalf 5m out.

I never suggested penalising the defenders I said they are not allowed to charge.

 

[L'irlandais]

South African referees take on (2016) version of the Law.

Forget the omission of single player from current law book. He is quite clear defenders are at a disadvantage since they can NOT move before the ball is in play. I was beginning to doubt myself with your insistence.

 

[Decorily]

South African referees take on (2016) version of the Law.

Forget the omission of single player from current law book. He is quite clear defenders are at a disadvantage since they can NOT move before the ball is in play. I was beginning to doubt myself with your insistence.

Different scenario to the one being discussed previously.
Clearly a defender standing on the OS line cannot move forward until the ball is kicked.
Your scenario was a defender starting well behind the OS line and moving forward.

 

[L'irlandais]

We are discussing this opening post. Only as crossref pointed out the mention of single player has been dropped from the Laws.

Blue have a penalty on opposition 5m line, opt for a tap. Prior to tap being taken big No8 starts running a line, so that at the point of tap and pass, he's at full tilt and unstoppable, in for a try under the posts.

Question: is this unlawful /dangerous? Obv flying wedge and the like are now outlawed, and at junior level the pop to an oncoming player isn't allowed, correct? But in conventional senior rugby, and to a single onrushing player?

The discussion got derailed about #06. But the scenario answers the OP’s question. No try!

 

[Decorily]

South African referees take on (2016) version of the Law.

Forget the omission of single player from current law book. He is quite clear defenders are at a disadvantage since they can NOT move before the ball is in play. I was beginning to doubt myself with your insistence.

You referenced this video and commented about defenders not being able to move before the ball is in play.

Now you say that you are discussing the OP which was nothing to do with defenders moving etc.

You are definitely confused!!

 

[L'irlandais]

Actually Jz558 posted this video in #22, but I didn’t click on it until now.

Crossref has been changing the scenario by saying walk them back 10 if they cross the offside line. ( Obviously cannot apply at a 5m tap penalty, since the defenders are already on their own goalline.) It was crossref too who split hairs between players rushing up fast as they can to the goalline. Which is entirely different from my saying they are not allowed to charge the kicker.

 

[Decorily]

So you are still insisting that a defender standing 10m (or whatever) behind the OS line cannot rush forward , while still remaining behind the OS line, until the ball is kicked?

 

[L'irlandais]

This is what happens on RRF, so as to be little help to new refs who ask very good questions. My point was that the charge isn’t allowed. Not allowed for attackers nor for defenders. The law is funny like that encourages fair competition for the ball.

The fact the mention of single player was dropped from the law book doesn’t make a single pkayer cavalry charge any less dangerous today than it was in 2016. Crossref’s movement of defenders is a red herring, he wasn’t answering the OP’s scenario. There’s a difference between a defender rushing up to the offside line to defend. And a defender starting his charge on the kicker from deep to ensure he is flat out by the time he clatters into the scrumhalf on the 5m line. The difference is the first one is allowed and the other is against the LoTG.