The Gate is dead! Long live the Gate!

[crossref]

Au contraire

1. it confirms that there were no deliberate changes by the authors.

2. doesn't apply as there were no law changes

3. doesn't apply as there were no law changes

We can argue about whether the changes were deliberate or accidental, and even whether they are known to the WR Blazers or not

But that there ARE changes is indisputable..

 

[Zebra1922]

Changes in language yes, but as has been made clear by WR changes in law (or interpretation thereof) no.

WR state no changes so why do people insist on continuing to highlight language which is their view results in a law change? You’ve heard it from the top, stop trying to complicate matters.

 

[crossref]

Being specific .. which items in my table of differences would you say that the 2018 and 2017 Law Books say the same thing ?

 

[Flish]

Are we still doing this? Really? Be back in another month :sad:

 

[ChrisR]

I didn't raise this question to debate change or no change from 2017 to 2018. I'm simply asking if the 2018 wording has changed the way in which the tackle is refereed.

This change goes back a long way. The following is an extract from a document released (?) by the Law Review Group who were preparing trials. The doc is dated December 22 2015.

4. All arriving players must come from an onside position (see 3 above) and can enter their side of the breakdown mid-point (no gate).

Their words, my bold and italics.

That has been percolating in the back of my mind and now that all trials have been incorporated into 2018 it's time to ask the question. What does this mean in the real referee world?

To paraphrase: Meet the new Law, just like the old Law.

 

[didds]

My understanding is that nothing has changed.....yes I know......!
Therefore my interpretation of:

8. Other players must :
c. Arrive at the tackle from the direction of their own goal line before playing the ball.

is that players must enter from the 6 o’clock position I.e.through the gate.

“But Sir, what if we come in from 5 or 7 o’clock”
“What if the tackled player is lying across the pitch rather than down the pitch”

Enter through the gate!
We all know what that means.
I don’t see an issue other than challenging the rewrite of the laws; which I agree has been less than helpful.

what I tell my players is... when presenting...

IF they present with their body paralell to the try line, the gate is the width of their body fie from feet to head. So could be 5-6 feet wide (these are U15s).

IF they present with their body parallel to the touchlines, then the gate is about 1m wide (ie width of shoulders/hips).

That is my "rule of thumb". I appeciate it may not be shared by opposition coaches and referees - but in two years thus far (or there abouts) my squad hasnt; been pinged for in from the side IF they follow these "squad rules" when the oppo get tackled to the ground.

didds

 

[SimonSmith]

Ian has a very good graphic that highlights that.

 

[Dickie E]

except dead on the half way line

The cl;oser to one's own try line, the wider the gate, the further from one's own, the narrower.

didds

that wasn't quite my point.

There is, was and always will be a greater tolerance for non-straight entry to the ball carrying team than to their opposition.

 

[crossref]

Of course entry doesn't have to be straight .. just from the direction of your own goal line

 

[Phil E]

I didn't raise this question to debate change or no change from 2017 to 2018. I'm simply asking if the 2018 wording has changed the way in which the tackle is refereed.

It shouldn't have.
Although top level referees do change the way they "interpret" things and this tends to filter down.

 

[crossref]

It's an odd thing if the wording of the Laws of Rugby has no impact on the way the game is played.

 

[didds]

that wasn't quite my point.

There is, was and always will be a greater tolerance for non-straight entry to the ball carrying team than to their opposition.

gotcha dickie!

didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

what I tell my players is... when presenting...

IF they present with their body paralell to the try line, the gate is the width of their body fie from feet to head. So could be 5-6 feet wide (these are U15s).

IF they present with their body parallel to the touchlines, then the gate is about 1m wide (ie width of shoulders/hips).

That is my "rule of thumb". I appeciate it may not be shared by opposition coaches and referees - but in two years thus far (or there abouts) my squad hasnt; been pinged for in from the side IF they follow these "squad rules" when the oppo get tackled to the ground.

didds

Ian has a very good graphic that highlights that.

This one (what I nicked from Rugby Ready) ?

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

This one (what I nicked from Rugby Ready) ?

The two red arrows closest to the green arrows; in other descrip. the two red arrows at the bottom of the page, are the entries we are now in 2018 about which concerned.

Are these aforementioned red arrows legal entry at a tackle?

 

[Phil E]

The two red arrows closest to the green arrows; in other descrip. the two red arrows at the bottom of the page, are the entries we are now in 2018 about which concerned.

Are these aforementioned red arrows legal entry at a tackle?

No because they are in front of the imaginary gatepost that exists at the corner of the backfoot line and the edge of the tackle area, to help us visualise the entry points.

 

[crossref]

No because they are in front of the imaginary gatepost that exists at the corner of the backfoot line and the edge of the tackle area, to help us visualise the entry points.

Law Reference for that ?

 

[Phil E]

Law Reference for that ?

There is no law reference for the gate, it's not mentioned in the laws (but then you already knew that).

As we have seen from this thread the entry point at a tackle is vague in the laws.
To make sense of it as referees we are told (you will have been told I am sure) that the easiest way to do this is visualise two gate posts.

Take a line across the back foot, then on that line note a point at the left and right edges of the tackle area. If you place an imaginary gate post at those two points on the back foot line, anyone entering the tackle in front of the gate post is illegal. Anyone entering between the gate posts is fine.

It's a way of helping you see in your minds eye what is acceptable. We do it for lots of things in the game in different ways. It's a referee aid.

But you see I know that you are already aware of all this, so why are you trying to muddy the waters...except maybe to prove a personal point?

At this point i'm out and wont be responding anymore.

 

[thepercy]

Law Reference for that ?

This is covered in USA Rugby's GMG, and ARU GMG. Its too bad that WR does not have its own GMG or that all national unions don't have GMG. Every nuance of rugby refereeing does not need to be included in the LotG. But they should be written down somewhere official, like GMGs or in a WR training guide.

 

[crossref]

I think the picture is a really useful one .

Looking at it from a green perspective : would anyone really penalise a green player entering along the line of the red arrow bottom right ?

I wouldn't

(But I would penalise a green player entering along the line of any of the other five arrows.)

Phil I wasn't making a 2017 v 2018 point , this isn't on my table of differences (it's too subtle and subjective)

I do think that modern practice has evolved to allow a green approach along arrow (given the shape of that particular tackle)

The way that they have chosen thenwording of the Law in 2018 reflects that evolution in the way we ref a tackle

 

[Dickie E]

Looking at it from a green perspective : would anyone really penalise a green player entering along the line of the red arrow bottom right ?

I wouldn't

What about a blue player entering along the corresponding red arrow at the top?