The glass ceiling

[OB..]

In England, 2nd XVs may join the leagues but cannot be promoted above Level 8.

The (not very accurate) rule of thumb is to add 3 to the 1st XV level to estimate that of the 2nd XV. As a consequence, 2nd XVs of clubs at level 3,4, and possibly 5 have a problem. Level 8 will not give their players the necessary challenge to make them fit to move up into the 1st XV; and they will block the league for other clubs' 1st XVs.

This seems to be admin based, since those lower leagues are run by CBs (counties) or DOCs (Districts such as South West). However there is considerable resistance to removing that glass ceiling.

As an example of the problem, Cinderford (Level 3) play their 2nd XV in the London-based Zoo leagues http://www.theshieldrugby.com/Tables.html. Unsurprisingly the London clubs resent having to travel to the Forest of Dean, and some fail to do so. It is also expensive for Cinderford.

The main argument against change seems to be inertia, but it has been suggested that club 1st XVs worry that their players would happily move to play for the 2nd XV of a stronger club with the hope of getting into their 1st XV.

The RFU is currently going round the country following up earlier initiatives on 2nd and lower XVs, trying to get some kind of consensus, so I wondered if anyone else on here has thoughts or input.

(For completeness. Levels 1 and 2 are basically professional, so have different problems. The lower levels are at best semi-professional.)

 

[didds]

Certainly a problem Chippenham RFC have highlighted for several years. their 2nd XV regularly win D&W (North) 1, often at a bit of a canter, whilst their 1st team was often in Nat 3. It is arguable that we (Devizes) have the same issues to some degree, with our 2nd being two levels lower than our 1sts.

I suppose one solution may be to drop the concept of 2nd XVs being in RFU leagues and instead the 2nd XVs play against their 1st Xv opponents' 2nd Xvs. This could provide a better reflection of where everybody "needs" to be. The obvious downside to that is once you move above Level 8, 2nd Xvs could end up with large distances to travel as well which may not actually fit well with all concerned - and now even if that wasn't an issue all it does it move the existing glass ceiling down a level where 3rd Xvs are not providing sufficient levels to help players prepare for potential 2nd XV callups. (usual caveats over the role of a 3rd XV in a club maybe)

maybe all that cod be hoped for is for 2nd Xvs of such clubs dropping out of RFU leagues if they would rather arrange 2nd Xv fixtures against other simlar teams. Whether that would provide enough fixtures may be is open to conjecture ..

didds

 

[crossref]

In London the RFU have got themselves into the situation where they are unwilling organise a decent league spot for quality 2nd XV, so another organisation - the Shield - stepped in to offer a league instead.

The RFU are presumably happy that their L6 L7 leagues aren't polluted with 2nd XV (that's what they want, right?) but meanwhile 2nd XV are happy as they get to play decent quality rugby. (And another other attraction of the sheild, I know because my club play, is that where possible they arrange double headers : so if the two 1st XV are in the same league the shield will arrange the two 2nd XV on the same day, which everyone enjoys)

Outside London where there probably aren't enough quality 2nd XV to arrange a league, yes, it's a problem.

What is the rule designed to achieve?

 

[Dixie]

The main argument against change seems to be inertia, but it has been suggested that club 1st XVs worry that their players would happily move to play for the 2nd XV of a stronger club with the hope of getting into their 1st XV.

I honestly don't think it's inertia - the effort that goes into the Shield competitions and its analogues is such that it would be far easier to overcome any inertia, if that's all it is. I believe the true issue is the latter. A large, successful club has a considerable gravity well. A player with pretentions to L.5 rugby but playing at a L.8 club either has to help his own club progress, or else move to a L.5 club and push for inclusion in the 1st team. If you allow the 2nd XV of the L.5 club to play at L.6 or L.7, then the L.8 first XV's will get stripped of talent and will probably implode.

For me, this is a real (and perhaps intractable) problem. You could urge the RFU to organise a worthwhile 2nd XV competition - but if the "true" level of that competition as determined by Societies for appointment purposes is L.6, what's the difference between that and the existing RFU league (other than the missing kudos of playing 1st XV)? If the RFU declines and a Shield-type organisation promotes the 2nd XV league, then if it does it well and clubs sign up en masse, you have the same issue.

What we really need is a dose of the old Command Economy. You have to play for the club nearest your home, otherwise you pay triple membership and match fees.

 

[OB..]

I suppose one solution may be to drop the concept of 2nd XVs being in RFU leagues and instead the 2nd XVs play against their 1st Xv opponents' 2nd Xvs.

This is the concept of "mirror leagues". Unfortunately it makes the (largely false) assumption that the second XVs will all be of roughly the same ability.

I looked at the situation in respect of Level 7 clubs with 2nd XVs in the leagues. The latter were at levels 8, 9, 10, and 11. You will also get the odd situation where the 1st XV gets relegated/promoted and the 2nd XV has to follow, regardless of their own success or otherwise.

 

[OB..]

A large, successful club has a considerable gravity well. A player with pretentions to L.5 rugby but playing at a L.8 club either has to help his own club progress, or else move to a L.5 club and push for inclusion in the 1st team.

That is true now. My club has passed on really good players to a higher club, with our blessing. Some of them have later come back to play for us again as their star fades.

If you allow the 2nd XV of the L.5 club to play at L.6 or L.7, then the L.8 first XV's will get stripped of talent and will probably implode.

The only new factor is that the senior club might see how good a player is and try to recruit him. But where do they get their players from now anyway? I am not convinced it is that serious a threat to the existence of a club. Is this a problem at present where teams are mixed, or only one you think will arise above Level 8?

 

[Dixie]

I am not convinced it is that serious a threat to the existence of a club. Is this a problem at present where teams are mixed, or only one you think will arise above Level 8?

I am probably not the person to provide an opinion, as I don't think I've ever reffed a club with a 1st XV lower than L.8 - certainly I never played for one. I'd guess that few ambitious players would join such a club other than by accident (lack of due diligence), so the mix is probably more toward the social than the athletic end of the spectrum. If so, then I could imagine that the lure of a L.8 2nd XV might be limited - but as I say, I have no real life experience.