TMO Bottling it again!!!

[andyscott]

What's the chuffing use of TMO if they bottle the sanction.

Tim Payne RC all day long!!!

Are Aviva refs briefed not to use RCs???

 

[Waspsfan]

Awful decision. Had to be a red card.

 

[andyscott]

And while I am on a moan, don't the Aviva refs YC for repeat infringements or cynical dropping of mauls 2m out?

Actually when was the last repeat infringement YC given?

 

[dave_clark]

link please

 

[Phil E]

link please

Or some description of the incident at least?

 

[Waspsfan]

Tim Payne (Wasps prop) deliberately struck a Northampton player in the face with his knee. The struck Northampton player was in a vulnerable position at the time - on the ground adjacent to a ruck. Ball was nowhere near all of this, and Payne had to run a few metres to make this impact happen. It was spotted by the AR who alerted the ref, they had a chat and went upstairs. TMO saw the replay as did the crowd, and the referee. TMO then described it as a deliberate knee to the face and recommended a yellow card. Up until he said the word 'yellow' the officials had got things spot on.

Can't find a video. Maybe rugbyrefs will oblige in due course. ITV4 highlight show tonight of course will show it.

 

[scarlet referee]

Just caught highlights, Red all day long!! Yellow for such an offence is a cop out!!

 

[talbazar]

Or some description of the incident at least?

Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdjNf7JaeV0

It's obvious the knee connects with the head even before the foot touches the ground --> :norc:

 

[OB..]

I can see no reason for his action other than to knee the opponent. I wonder if he will get cited?

 

[Dixie]

Is the fact that he plunged his left knee into his own team mate's face:

a) contra-evidential
b) mitigation or
c) aggravation?

 

[Account Deleted]

Are Aviva refs briefed not to use RCs???

The ref did not call the card.He went on the TMO recommendation. The TMO should have said it was to the head. And then it would have been clear that a YC was a farce.

From the description a Y seems right so we can't blame DP for this one. However, had the TMO described it correctly and then recommended a YC I would expect the ref to seek clarification as to "WHY?"

 

[crossref]

The ref did not call the card.He went on the TMO recommendation. The TMO should have said it was to the head. And then it would have been clear that a YC was a farce.

From the description a Y seems right so we can't blame DP for this one. However, had the TMO described it correctly and then recommended a YC I would expect the ref to seek clarification as to "WHY?"

that's the dave pearson, wayne barnes tip-tackle scenario.

DP described the incident perfectly to the WB and then said yellow.
WB accepted the advice. The general view was that he was coreect to do so. A minority view was that WB should have said 'hang-on, what you described sounded Red - are you sure?'

 

[Davet]

A minority view was that WB should have said 'hang-on, what you described sounded Red - are you sure?'

Possibly, but what options does that leave open for Pearson?

He could say, "D'oh silly me, you're right - why didn't I think of that!" - or words to that effect, but basically accepting, very publicly, that he had got the recommendation wrong. Which would be a big ask.

OR

He could (and most likely would) say, "Yes, in context I'm happy with Yellow for that!"

Barnes then has an option, does he say, "OK Yellow it is" or does he say, "I have not seen the incident, I have asked you as an experienced ref in your own right what happened, and what you recommend, but I am then going to decide on a Red regardless of what you think" - or words to that effect.

The latter would be a very divisive call, and do neither of them any favours - and frankly I can't see it being realistic.

It is most liklely that even if WB felt the description merited red, he played the possible conversations and outcomes over in his head before opening his mouth and decided that, whichever way it went, no good would come of asking the question.

I applaud such forethought.

 

[crossref]

Possibly, but what options does that leave open for Pearson?

He could say, "D'oh silly me, you're right - why didn't I think of that!" - or words to that effect, but basically accepting, very publicly, that he had got the recommendation wrong. Which would be a big ask.

OR

He could (and most likely would) say, "Yes, in context I'm happy with Yellow for that!"

Barnes then has an option, does he say, "OK Yellow it is" or does he say, "I have not seen the incident, I have asked you as an experienced ref in your own right what happened, and what you recommend, but I am then going to decide on a Red regardless of what you think" - or words to that effect.

The latter would be a very divisive call, and do neither of them any favours - and frankly I can't see it being realistic.

It is most liklely that even if WB felt the description merited red, he played the possible conversations and outcomes over in his head before opening his mouth and decided that, whichever way it went, no good would come of asking the question.

I applaud such forethought.

Dave, yes that's very much the majority view, for the reasons you give.

perhaps a protocol should be
Ref - please describe the incident you saw
AR/TMO - this is what I saw
Ref - from your description it seems to me that the offence is X, and the right sanction is Y. but if you suspect I have misunderstood the incident, please can you now add/clarify the description?


perhaps that protocol would work better.

OR perhaps even more simply - keep the conversation between the two private so that either one can indeed say 'D'oh, you are right' without looking silly.

 

[Davet]

keep the conversation between the two private so that either one can indeed say 'D'oh, you are right' without looking silly

Which used to be the case but now, apparantly, is not. I suspect the genie will no longer fit back in the bottle

 

[Account Deleted]

Dave, yes that's very much the majority view, for the reasons you give.

perhaps a protocol should be
Ref - please describe the incident you saw
AR/TMO - this is what I saw
Ref - from your description it seems to me that the offence is X, and the right sanction is Y. but if you suspect I have misunderstood the incident, please can you now add/clarify the description?


perhaps that protocol would work better.

OR perhaps even more simply - keep the conversation between the two private so that either one can indeed say 'D'oh, you are right' without looking silly.

Basically what we are told

Ref - I saw x have you anything to add or did you see anything else, or I did not see anything can you describe what you saw.
AR/TMO - this is what I saw
Ref - So you are saying that the following happened (ref repeats his understanding of the ARs description). On that basis I intend to award a PK and issue a warning /yc /rc to Blue 5. Do you agree or do you have anything to add..

As a ref: Don't ask for a recommendation unless the description does not "tell" you what to give.

As an AR: Don't make a recommendation unless the referee asks for one.


Otherwise the officials paint themselves into a corner.

 

[andyscott]

The ref did not call the card.He went on the TMO recommendation. The TMO should have said it was to the head. And then it would have been clear that a YC was a farce.

From the description a Y seems right so we can't blame DP for this one. However, had the TMO described it correctly and then recommended a YC I would expect the ref to seek clarification as to "WHY?"

By Ref I should have said match official.

 

[Ian_Cook]

As a ref: Don't ask for a recommendation unless the description does not "tell" you what to give.

As an AR: Don't make a recommendation unless the referee asks for one.

I'd have to ask if a card would ever be recommended under those circumstances.

 

[SilverMoon]

Tim Payne (Wasps prop) deliberately struck a Northampton player in the face with his knee. The struck Northampton player was in a vulnerable position at the time - on the ground adjacent to a ruck. Ball was nowhere near all of this, and Payne had to run a few metres to make this impact happen. It was spotted by the AR who alerted the ref, they had a chat and went upstairs. TMO saw the replay as did the crowd, and the referee. TMO then described it as a deliberate knee to the face and recommended a yellow card. Up until he said the word 'yellow' the officials had got things spot on.

Can't find a video. Maybe rugbyrefs will oblige in due course. ITV4 highlight show tonight of course will show it.

just to be clear the footage shown at half time in the live game and in the highlights are very different to what was presented to the TMO at the time he recommended a yellow card. Had he seen the footage he would have responded differently. It's very difficult for the broadcasters to get the right camera shots in the time-scales for live TV. If there is any blame here it should be aimed at ESPN for not getting the right camera angle and then broadcasting a different view after the event.

Thankfully the player will get his due punishment through the citing officer.

 

[andyscott]

just to be clear the footage shown at half time in the live game and in the highlights are very different to what was presented to the TMO at the time he recommended a yellow card. Had he seen the footage he would have responded differently. It's very difficult for the broadcasters to get the right camera shots in the time-scales for live TV. If there is any blame here it should be aimed at ESPN for not getting the right camera angle and then broadcasting a different view after the event.

Thankfully the player will get his due punishment through the citing officer.

Sorry but I dont believe that, if he didnt have the angle of the RC, then it wasnt a yellow either. which angle was the YC offence seen and the red not seen? To me it was either Red or nothing.

I will ask DP when I see him tomorrow.

1st Camera angle was nothing.
2nd camera angle was RC every time

Transcript
On having a clear look at it 1 blue clearly drops his knees onto a green player. It is deliberate.
Recommendation, Recommendation is Yellow card.

Now what part of the above can be a YC!!!