U13 and U12 together?

[MiniRef]

Can U13 and U12 train together, and take part in a training match together? (presumably using U12 age grade regulations re: no hand offs, pitch size, 6 man scrum etc)?
Or are they specifically barred from this? If so, please can somebody tell me where?
Thanks.

 

[RugbyGeek]

Can U13 and U12 train together, and take part in a training match together? (presumably using U12 age grade regulations re: no hand offs, pitch size, 6 man scrum etc)?
Or are they specifically barred from this? If so, please can somebody tell me where?
Thanks.

Hi Mini,

This is verbatim from one of the RFU's safety officers....

RFU Special Dispensation

The vast majority of children, with correct coaching, can play in their

correct age grades but in exceptional circumstances, where the safety of

the child may be compromised due a developmental disability

(physical or behavioural), application may be made to the RFU for an

individual dispensation permitting a player to play down one age

grade. Such dispensation will last for only one Season. Application

for such dispensation should be submitted to the RFU Company

Secretary and Legal Officer and should be accompanied by

documentary evidence or signed statements confirming the player’s
disability.


For the avoidance of doubt, special dispensations to play outside of

their true age grade will not be granted to players merely because they

appear to have skills inferior or superior to their team mates.


This means that players must play in their own age group unless they are able to satisfy the above dispensation, or one of the other dispensations set out in regulation 15 (small number of players, 6 year old dispensation or training). It is only at the age of U13 that players may be considered to play up an age grade. This means that both boys must play in the U8 for another year.

 

[didds]

Presuming Miniref is in England, I really wouldn't go here.

w/out looking up the AGRs off the top of my head the only way U12s can PLAY U13 rugby is if there are insufficient numbers to make a U12 team viable in its own right, and even then there are other caveats involved.

I'm not sure how that leaves TRAINING (no matter what common sense may suggest!) , and if you normally run a U12 quad in its own right then you haven;t a leg to stand on.


CAVEAT: You can do anything you like really - but if its outside the regs then there is no RFU insurance in place for ANYBODY involved.

didds

 

[MiniRef]

Thanks. I can answer my own question now...

http://www.rfu.com/TheGame/Regulati...ugby/LegalAndAdmin/RFU Regulation 15 pdf.ashx

from which you've drawn your statement, goes on to state:
15.1.4.1 In Mini and Midi Rugby (Under 7 – Under 12) players shall play in their
own age grade unless one of the following dispensations apply:
(a) Training Dispensation
During internal Club or School training, players may train together
and play internal training matches together in the following groups
only:
(i) Under 7 and Under 8 squads;
(ii) Under 9 and Under 10 squads,
(iii) Under 11 and Under 12 squads.

It was the training bit I was interested in - this seems to make it clear that U12 cannot train with U13. Thanks.

 

[davidgh]

Didds - no way u13s can play down to u12 or u12s play up to u13s - if short of u13s, I think they have to play up to u14s - u14s can't play down. BUT in my experience unless they are very mature u13s, it doesn't work, u14s are too developed and the u13s have a rough time.

Absolutely no mixing of Minis and Youth - even in training - ever - as far as i am aware

 

[Pinky]

In Scotland there is permission to play across two year groups, as long as the age grade variations for the younger players are applied. This means that U13 coul dplay with U12 or U14 (but not both at the same time) in matches as long as U12 or U13 law variations applied. (In Scotland it is tied to school year rather than age until U15). A bit of common sence may still be required if one team has a large and fast boy who can brush aside most tackle attempts, but in my experience they tend to be either large or fast and not both.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Can U13 and U12 train together, and take part in a training match together? (presumably using U12 age grade regulations re: no hand offs, pitch size, 6 man scrum etc)?
Or are they specifically barred from this? If so, please can somebody tell me where?
Thanks.

yes they can (and do) if they go to a private fee paying Preparatory School who are governed by the Rugby Football Schools Union not the RFU - the Schools Union is the older body. Using U13 15-a-side laws.

 

[spikeno10]

Ah yes and the year 7s (under 12s) have also been seen at schools playing on full sized pitches, 15 aside, handoffs allowed and even in one case lifting in the line out. This was not a fee paying prep school just a normal school.
Big difference, they have their own insurance.

 

[crossref]

yes they can (and do) if they go to a private fee paying Preparatory School who are governed by the Rugby Football Schools Union not the RFU - the Schools Union is the older body. Using U13 15-a-side laws.

it doesn't have to be fee paying, surely, all rugby-playing schools are governed by the Rugby Football Schools Union, including state ones.

 

[Simon Thomas]

it doesn't have to be fee paying, surely, all rugby-playing schools are governed by the Rugby Football Schools Union, including state ones.

if you say so cross-ref, as I have little knowledge of the state sector as far as education goes. :biggrin:

 

[OB..]

if you say so cross-ref, as I have little knowledge of the state sector as far as education goes. :biggrin:

Checking my county handbook, I see there is a GRFU Schools' Union, and that Pates Grammar School, Cheltenham, Bristol Grammar School, and various other state schools are members.

 

[crossref]

if you say so cross-ref, as I have little knowledge of the state sector as far as education goes. :biggrin:

well, you should learn more about it in rugby context -- as that sort of attitude is pervasive and pernicious in rugby - for instance in the selection of County squads, and it does our beloved game no good whatsoever.


I am pleased that in SW london there are plenty of state schools playing rugby, some to a very good standard, and happily playing fixtures against local independent schools.

the Rugby Football Schools Union I regard as an anachronism, not fit for purpose, and damaging to the development of junior rugby. It needs to be reformed.

U11 is the worst time for us as our kids play THREE different types of rugby
- in the state system they are at primary school and most primary schools still, alas, are playing tag at U11
- in the clubs they are playing midi rugby the continuum, full contact but a reduced game
- in the independent sector they are at prep school and sometimes playing 15 a-side and quite adult rules
it's not helpful.

 

[Simon Thomas]

please can I claim this week's JR Hartley award for the quickest & biggest bite (check out the smiley icon on my previous post).

Being serious for a second (now I am liberated of being a full time Society blazer I find it difficult to do so for much longer than that !), I have spent 10 years in Hampshire working with colleagues on the CB, the Schools Union (their Chairman is a Society Referee) and in the Society to get more Society Refs doing matches (including personally taking time off work to cover Wednesday afternoon matches at state schools/ colleges), directly helped two 6th form colleges and one state school (11-16) set up rugby academies and fostered close links to the local clubs. Plus with the RFU Trainer set up dedicated ELRA courses at those educational establishments, and at two large private schools (one of which has given us a stream of outstanding players such as Jonnie Wilko, Peter Richards, Ugo Moyne) we have established actual sub-Societies - funding easier to obtain. And some of their 6th form boys who are ELRA qualified are appointed to state school Wednesday matches.

Finally my CB has the Hampshire Way (set up 10 years ago by Mike Glogg) which is recognised RFU Best Practice whereby all County squads are fully integrated between schools and clubs players, with coaches and selectors drawn from both. I have acted as a selector at U18 level for the half backs, and saw no favouritism. In fact I had to tell one angry father & and annoyed club coach that a lad was not going to make the squad as he was well below four other #9s in his skills tests and in my opinion did not have the tactical appreciation or execution of the others, based on trial match evidence and comparisons. Two years that squad made the Twickenham U20 Final and lost to Hartpury College, sorry Gloucestershire.

 

[davidgh]

Hmmm - I was told a couple of years ago that the ESRFU and the RFU were in the process of harmonising the rules, however the major exception is that all schools who start at 11 years old tend to go straight into 15 a side and miss out on the 'u12 year'.

I was told this is effectively everybody playing u13 rugby early and was seen by the RFU as a 'block' age dispensation!

Will it ever merge ......

Actually these are largely the traditional grant aided and grammar schools which do 11 plus and start at 11 rather than the pure private 'public school' system which mostly starts at 13.

 

[crossref]

Hmmm - I was told a couple of years ago that the ESRFU and the RFU were in the process of harmonising the rules, however the major exception is that all schools who start at 11 years old tend to go straight into 15 a side and miss out on the 'u12 year'.

I was told this is effectively everybody playing u13 rugby early and was seen by the RFU as a 'block' age dispensation!

Will it ever merge ......

Actually these are largely the traditional grant aided and grammar schools which do 11 plus and start at 11 rather than the pure private 'public school' system which mostly starts at 13.

Unfortnuately I don't see any sign of the laws harmonising....

state sector obvisously go from primary to secondary at 11.
- in primary schools I have only ever seen tag played (I think primary schools see contact as a bit scary to train and play)
- in state secondary schools RFU U19 regulations are played BUT

independent sector have prep schools where contact rugby is played
- traditional independent secondary schools start at 13, especially the out of town boarding schools
- but starting at 11 is increasingly common and many of the day schools in London take most of theor pupils at 11

- in the independent sector a lot of 15-a-side rugby is played from a very young age - eg U10 U11.

- things don't really harmonise until U13 when everyone is playing 15-a-side.


I reckon the the UK there are currently EIGHT different sets of Laws used for rugby being played by 11 year olds
- tag rugby in state primary schools in England
- 15-a-side rugby in independent schools in England
- 13-a-side midi rugby in clubs in England
- experimental midi ruby in Hampshire/Warwickshire/Durham
- WRU Pathway rugby in Wales
- SRU Scottish rugby in Scotland
- Irish equivalent in Northern Ireland

I am not sure what welsh and scottish and Irish schools do -- perhaps there are three additional codes?

 

[Pinky]

I think in 2009 in Scotland there was a push to get schools and clubs playing to the same law variations. This is the case now, but U12 and U13 and U14 are referred to by school year, Primary 7, Secondary 1 and Secondary 2 and only become directly related to age from u15. Clubs and schools can play with 15 a side at S1 (rather than 13) and 13 a side at P7 rather than 10 if they (and their opponents) wish. There are TAG adn other low contact variations too.