U14 schools cup semi this afternoon

[Scarlet Al]

Guy got injured in the tackle... Twisted knee... Blew up straight away as he shouted... Couldn't move it... Finally was moved off the field... School had no stretcher and no emergency vehicle access, although in fairness, it was a club's pitch (with regards to emergency access)... Ambulance called, Fast response car (quickly, in fairness) turned up, but no strecher, and could not get it on the field due to a lot of standing water on the grass around the pitch (although the pitch was 100% fine and playable)... A parent with a 4x4 then offered to bring it on to the field to get the boy out of the pissing down rain, he was then helped in to the boot of the 4x4 and taken around to the school building, where he was then dealt with (inside) by the paramedic, although he couldn't do much until the ambulance turned up... Paramedic said most likely only a bad knee wrench but needed to check out everything else in case. I was useless and couldn't do anything to help by this point so wished the boy well and left. On my way home, saw what I presume would have been the ambulance going towards the school, about 10 mins. away from the school... Saw this ambulance 45 minutes after the first call to the ambulance service was made...

Anyway, thoughts are with the boy for a speedy recovery... Not a nice thing to experience, especially in that kind of attrocious weather like today.

 

[Dixie]

Did you abandon the game or play on once the 4X4 was off the pitch?

 

[Scarlet Al]

Did you abandon the game or play on once the 4X4 was off the pitch?

The player was helped off the pitch, this was his choice, 999 was then called. The 8 remaining minutes of the match were then played whilst the player was off the pitch. As I blew full time, the Fast response vehicle turned up and so on...

 

[dave_clark]

should it have been left up to a 14 year old whether or not he be moved - surely a teacher would have been better placed to make that decision?

 

[Scarlet Al]

should it have been left up to a 14 year old whether or not he be moved - surely a teacher would have been better placed to make that decision?

Teachers asked if he could put weight on good leg, he answered yes and then said he wanted to get off the pitch because he wanted the guys to get on with the game, player was helped off by two teachers. No issues. It was right on the line of touch it happened. so literally only a few metres to go, but wouldn't have been able to get in, as we were playing on the second pitch (first pitch pretty much had a river running through it and a river running through one touch in goal area) and the second pitch is about 1/4 to 1/2 a mile away from changing rooms with a steep bank to negotiate.

 

[Davet]

The issue to me is the lack of access for emergency vehicles provided by the match organisers.

The fact that it was a club ground used by a school complicates matters, but simply means that both organisations need to co-ordinate their approach, and someone MUST be responsible for ensuring emergency vehicle access is available, and a stretcher and other 1st aid facilities - including someone trained in 1st aid / physio. Passing the buck is not acceptable.

A strong letter to both organisations would not seem inappropriate.

Shockingly bad planning, and very poor on both their parts. Had this been a serious injury then I suspect that legal action would be brought against them, and that in the case of a school jobs may well be at risk.

 

[OB..]

We have been told that we should NOT have a stretcher available, so ours was taken away some years ago. Apparently the risk of making an injury worse by moving players when you shouldn't outweighed other considerations.

Emergency vehicle access is, however, essential.

 

[Davet]

OB - if there is a competent qualified first aider on hand then I would think a stretcher is useful.

I still cannot understand why clubs can lay on first aiders / physios ensure pitches are roped off, and ensure full emergency access for 1st team games and not for others. Do they feel that 2nd team or youth players are never going to get hurt, or is it simply that if they do then they are expendable?

It is not a referee's problem, but it IS the club's and the Unions - and the CB should be pro-active.

 

[Toby Warren]

Bad luck, yuo do feel kind of responsible somehow as ref, however it is clear that it is the teachers duty.

Once had a bad injury in an adult game - captain comes up to me immediately have you called an ambulance ref?
(what with my whistle shaped mobile phone I was tempted to answer".

People look to you to fix the problems.

 

[GeorgeR]

I got the impression that the biggest problem was the weather and that the pitches around had standing water preventing anything but a 4x4 getting on the pitch (Courtesy of a parent). Surely this is not a normal access issue? Schools in my experience, whilst they may have first aid and first aiders it stops there and they then call in the paramedics. I had a collar bone go on a match the other week (boy didn't want to move) and even though the pitch was next to the school access, if the weather had been as bad as described I think the ambulance driver would have decided not to drive on the pitch.

 

[PaulDG]

I still cannot understand why clubs can lay on first aiders / physios ensure pitches are roped off, and ensure full emergency access for 1st team games and not for others.

Because it's an amateur game and all those people are volunteers and there aren't enough of them to do all the other matches.

Davet, it's a bit like asking why the IRB can provide Wayne Barnes for the world cup semi-final but can't get anyone even remotely qualified to do Old Wangonians U9s on a Sunday morning in January.

 

[Davet]

Because it's an amateur game and all those people are volunteers and there aren't enough of them to do all the other matches.

"the other matches"

So they can get the volunteers for the "important" 1st team game?

But no-one can be arsed to look after the rest of the club?

Nice.

 

[OB..]

"the other matches"

So they can get the volunteers for the "important" 1st team game?

But no-one can be arsed to look after the rest of the club?

Nice.

That has always been the case. I have played enough 3rd and 4th XV matches to know that you rarely get even the apocryphal man and a dog.

 

[Davet]

OB - I know.

But doesn't mean we should simply carry on accepting the unacceptable - it's only when people start to question unacceptable practices that we are able to stop them.

Fine, don't refuse to start the game - but at least all societies should issue refs with a card to report on the club (Hants do, but don't seem to insist on refs completing it (Simon?) - which would include things like safety facilities - pitch roped off, emergency access, someone with a mobile (with charged battery and signal), some first aid facility - and blankets (ideally with a "space blanket") available close by. Then you can discuss it with the club and fill it in, as a mtter of course.

THEN the society can forward all these to the CB, who can THEN raise it with the clubs.

It's a slow process, but if no one cares or bothers to collect data then it will simply carry on. :nono:

 

[OB..]

all societies should issue refs with a card to report on the club (Hants do, but don't seem to insist on refs completing it

We do as well, and give the Whistler Trophy to the best team at our annual dinner. Our problem is also the same - getting referees to send the cards in.

 

[Dixie]

We do as well, and give the Whistler Trophy to the best team at our annual dinner. Our problem is also the same - getting referees to send the cards in.

Competition for the trophy in Berks is such that several clubs have asked for a stock of the cards, hand it to ref on arrival and collect it in before departure.

 

[Simon Thomas]

OB - I know.

But doesn't mean we should simply carry on accepting the unacceptable - it's only when people start to question unacceptable practices that we are able to stop them.

Fine, don't refuse to start the game - but at least all societies should issue refs with a card to report on the club (Hants do, but don't seem to insist on refs completing it (Simon?) - which would include things like safety facilities - pitch roped off, emergency access, someone with a mobile (with charged battery and signal), some first aid facility - and blankets (ideally with a "space blanket") available close by. Then you can discuss it with the club and fill it in, as a mtater of course.

THEN the society can forward all these to the CB, who can THEN raise it with the clubs.

It's a slow process, but if no one cares or bothers to collect data then it will simply carry on. :nono:

DaveT - our Committee view is that HRFU should get their act together via RDOs and the Community Committee and not rely on the Refs Society to do their audit for them. Society priority is to get referee feedback cards submitted. e do agree we shoud encourage all refs to report inadequate facilities in advance whe they encounter them - locked access gates, no stretcher, no number of ambulance shown, etc.

Refs thee days have enough to do pre-match and we are pushing back against a number of RFU and CB suggestions that mean more work / admin for the ref.

We will be addressing these issues over the summer ready for next season.

 

[Phil E]

We do as well, and give the Whistler Trophy to the best team at our annual dinner. Our problem is also the same - getting referees to send the cards in.

We don't have cards, it is printed on the expenses form.
If you want one, you have to fill out the other.

 

[Davet]

We will be addressing these issues over the summer ready for next season.

Simon - not trying to interfere, and happy to leave it to the committee, I understand about the amount of admin that goes with refereeing these days.

My only comment, for whatever it may be worth, is that there has been an attitide prevalent for a long time - to paraphrase OB, "'twas ever thus" - that treats lower team games as not worthy of the same safety protocols as 1st team games - or even some clubs who don't even bother about the ones. I don't think this is acceptable.

That said, my work here is done - Over to those who organise these things to work out what they think is appropriate and practical, and enforceable.

 

[OB..]

we shoud encourage all refs to report inadequate facilities in advance whe they encounter them - locked access gates, no stretcher, no number of ambulance shown, etc.

As I have said before, we are not allowed to have a stretcher at my club. We are the rugby section of a multi-sports club and Health & Safety has banned stretchers.