U18's 40 point lead - who do you offer it to?

[Greg Collins]

Our youth league regs say "If any teams score reaches 40 points in excess of an oppositions score, the match may be terminated at that stage (unless the score is attributed to adverse weather conditions favouring a side in the first half) and that result will be deemed to be the final score." My italics

Black play white at U18's, colts, whatever your local 'senior' level of youth 35 minutes a side rugby is, Black are 38 - 0 up. At 35 - 0 you spoke to the White skipper and the Coach about the option if the score goes over 40. Black score another penalty with 20 left on the clock.

a) White coach says bin it, white skip says we will play on Sir.

b) White skip says "we've had enough thank you Sir" Coach shouts from touch line to play on for a bit

c) White coach and skip say we will play to the end Sir. black score again, white heads start to drop. Would you unilaterally bin it on safety grounds?

your thoughts on how to manage each situation please. For me c) is no-brainer, off we go on my say so. Safety is paramount and I'm the sole judge. a) and b) are a bit more taxing though.

Laters....

 

[Phil E]

Get both captains and coaches together. Tell them to come to an agreed decision. If they cant agree, make the decsion for them, which for me would be blow up.

 

[Cymro]

In WRU land at U19 its 50 points difference and no choice. Game over, no negotiations.

 

[Dixie]

I'd tend to go with the players. If the coach demands his players take more punishment than they want to take, I'm thinking that the players are adult or nearly adult enough to know their own minds. However, the coach has a duty of care to his charges, and if he exercises that by calling them off when they don't want to come, that's really tough. I think then I'd tell the skipper and team to take 2 minutes to talk to the coach, and if it's still unresolved we'll come off.

 

[andyscott]

If both captains want to play on then the score at 40point lead counts and the rest doesn't count.
The defeated captain and team should be commended for excellent sportsmanship and courage despite the score. I usually have a word with the winning capt and say. Look guys this team is giving you a game, please show them respect so no show boating please.

Every game has gone on and if praised correctly both teams will have gained something out of the game.

 

[Donal1988]

I had a friendly U19 game involving a team from Connacht and a local Limerick team who are top dog in their league. Match only went ahead as the coaches were mates and needed game time with weather.

Anyway at half time it was 32-0 to Red (home team). The coaches called me over then and said they would swap numbers. Every odd numbered player would swap with his opponent and a mixed game would follow. The second half finished 21-16 the highlight being #15 from Green (away team) scoring two tries. They all had really good time.

 

[Staybound]

I'm with Dixie here. I think these are young men and they should know their minds by the age of 17/18. If they decide to play on I'd certainly have both captains over and say something along the lines of "ok gents, we've got the league result now, let's play the rest of the match as a friendly fixture" and try and get their affirmation of this. If there is a conflict between the players (want to go off) and the coach (want to play on) the players would get my casting vote.

I've certainly done a few adult matches where (merit and friendly), as we wander back from the posts following the nth unopposed converted try, I've whispered "this doesn't need to be 80 minutes" to the captain on the receiving end of the shoeing.

 

[Greg Collins]

I had a friendly U19 game involving a team from Connacht and a local Limerick team who are top dog in their league. Match only went ahead as the coaches were mates and needed game time with weather.

Anyway at half time it was 32-0 to Red (home team). The coaches called me over then and said they would swap numbers. Every odd numbered player would swap with his opponent and a mixed game would follow. The second half finished 21-16 the highlight being #15 from Green (away team) scoring two tries. They all had really good time.

A superbly pragmatic approach within the finest traditions of the spirit of the game. Not going to happen in a league match though is it?

 

[scrumpox2]

It's a shame that the league regs contain the word "may" instead of a clear, black and white points guideline, eg at 40 point margin the match ends and result stands.
In the situation you describe, I'm with Phil E, get the coach and captain together and politely suggest to the coach that he respects his captain's view rather than pressurizes him.
Having offered a similar odds and evens split when involved in a one sided drubbing, I once heard a coach ask his players, "It's up to you guys, do you want to give up or do you want to play for your shirt with a bit more pride and commitment?" Just a slightly leading question ...

 

[crossref]

I was reffing an U13s game earlier this season, a friendly. Heavy rain, very cold, 3x20 minute 'halves' with rolling subs.

Home club (mine) winning comfortably. Away team battling away gamely but getting nowhere, haven't even scored a try, in the third half heads dropping. Eventually with 5 mins to go they get some pressure going and the centre breaks through only to be felled by a high tackle about 10m from the line.

Coach comes on the the pitch to attend to the tackled player (shaken not hurt) and says to me 'we're coming off, they've had enough'.

I say 'are you sure? and then blow the whistle and say full time then.

Outcry from all his players... 'No, we don't want to stop, we want to the penalty and go for a try! We're so close!'

Coach now says, sheepishly, "Ah. Right, can we carry on then?"

So I guess my point is even at young levels like U13 should probably be paying more attention to the captain than the coach.

We played on, but even with me failing to spot a slightly forward pass, they didn't manage to score the consolation try they were after. :-(

 

[PaulDG]

I was reffing an U13s game earlier this season, a friendly. Heavy rain, very cold, 3x20 minute 'halves' with rolling subs.

Home club (mine) winning comfortably. Away team battling away gamely but getting nowhere, haven't even scored a try, in the third half heads dropping. Eventually with 5 mins to go they get some pressure going and the centre breaks through only to be felled by a high tackle about 10m from the line.

....


So I guess my point is even at young levels like U13 should probably be paying more attention to the captain than the coach.

We played on, but even with me failing to spot a slightly forward pass, they didn't manage to score the consolation try they were after. :-(

I must say, I'd be bothered that neither coach nor apparently the referee was aware that U13s play for 25 mins each way maximum - so a game of 3 20 minute halves shouldn't really have happened at all:

http://www.rfu.com/TheGame/Regulations/SchoolsAndYouth/06Matches

(No wonder they'd had enough with 5 minutes to go - the match should have finished 5 minutes earlier!)

 

[PaulDG]

Posted in error.

 

[Steve Bate]

I must say, I'd be bothered that neither coach nor apparently the referee was aware that U13s play for 25 mins each way maximum - so a game of 3 20 minute halves shouldn't really have happened at all:

http://www.rfu.com/TheGame/Regulations/SchoolsAndYouth/06Matches

(No wonder they'd had enough with 5 minutes to go - the match should have finished 5 minutes earlier!)

Paul, its quite common in Cheshire to play 3x20mins or 4x15 for U12/13 but with more players ie you'd end up with well over 20 players who've had a game and almost certainly not played for more than 45 mins let alone 50. With pitch space and high numbers its a fair way of getting players onto the pitch and play. I've got over 40 at U12, how else would I do it?

 

[Tryer]

Steve, with 32 players I'm in the same position as you and often do this in agreement with ref and oppo. I believe that although link states 2 x 25 min halfs, you will also find upto 60 mins of rugby is allowed if playing triangular or tournaments, so providing you have a good rest period in between "halves" no-one is breaking any rules. The same applies to the 12 games in the structured season. We play more than 12 games but keep a record of the gametime each player gets to ensure noone is getting overplayed and remains within 600 mins of competitive gametime. I can't keep a track of what they're doing at school but am aware when they have had particularly tough games and select our team accordingly.

 

[dave_clark]

I've got over 40 at U12, how else would I do it?

do you have many opposition in the same situation as you? many of my club's mini fixtures (and a growing number of youth ones) are A and B fixtures. this quite nicely gets round the problem of having too many kids.

if there aren't many in your normal fixture list, maybe it's time to review the list? we did it a while ago in the youth section and arranged a number of trips to Hertfordshire, Suffolk, Kent and Sussex (with teams also coming to us). i guess it's easier to do with youth players than with minis.

 

[crossref]

Almost all our friendles this season are 3x20 (or occasionally - 4x15)

It's because like most other clubs we don't have enough players in the squad for two complete teams, but more than enough for one, so getting game time is an issue. Lots of clubs seem to be in this position - with squads of 22-30

3x20, and lots of substitutions seems to to solve it - the coaches might agree to start with best 15, switch to the weakest 15, and then mix then up in the last period.

 

[dave_clark]

i found that when my squad got to U14, i had to start selecting a squad of 19 or so for each match. this was because i couldn't cope with having 5 wingers and 3 hookers, for example, turn up on a match day and trying to give equal game time to.

it meant that i could very rarely put out what i would consider to have been my best XV, as it was always rotating to ensure that all got matches. seemed to work OK (until the team folded at U17, like so many others).

 

[crossref]

Around us there are a few clubs lucky enough to have large enough squads to run independent A and B teams playing their own leagues/fixtures.

I reckon you need a squad of 45 to run two league teams (they will play on the same day, so truly no overlap is possible)

But most clubs have a squad of <30 with 25 or so on any one day. so a team and a half.

The invariable pattern around us is
- in the league you play your best 15.
- in the friendlies you play mixes as above, plus arrange some proper 2x25 fixtures against smaller/developing clubs, where you are able give your A team a break, and play the Bs.

You try and work it so that over the season it balances up so everyone feels they have enough match time.

It's pragmatic.

 

[Steve Bate]

do you have many opposition in the same situation as you? many of my club's mini fixtures (and a growing number of youth ones) are A and B fixtures. this quite nicely gets round the problem of having too many kids.

if there aren't many in your normal fixture list, maybe it's time to review the list? we did it a while ago in the youth section and arranged a number of trips to Hertfordshire, Suffolk, Kent and Sussex (with teams also coming to us). i guess it's easier to do with youth players than with minis.

Dave, yes we do have lots in the same boat as us, the problem is we do have A & B but in U12 at 13 a side that still leaves us with 14+ kids extra after 2 sides! so we have parallel fixtures for A & B and generally do as crossref says above, run with 20 in a squad and play the strongest 13 1st and then heavy on the replacements. Really not looking forward to the logistical nightmare next season of 2 x Junior teams one home, one away, huge pressure on coaching resources not to mention pitches!!

Steve

 

[crossref]

U13 is a big change - 15 a side, and Leagues means you need a lot more players to run two teams.
- In a U12 friendly you can get away with very few subs. Even none at a pinch
- In a U13 league you really need - what - minimum four subs? Ideally five. A lot of teams have seven and that's a lot of fresh legs for them to bring on if you can't match them.

So at U12 two teams for a friendly, ie both at same location, requires 28 fit players. A squad of 33 should give you 28 fit/available.
at U13 two league teams requires 38 fit players. 40 is better. A squad of 46 is probably needed yield 40 fit/available

It's no wonder that many clubs end up with a team-and-a-half at this level.