U19 Scrum formation - Questions

Pegleg

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I didn't understand your previous reply. Too cryptic for me. Are you saying g that in your world youth teams are not allowed to make tactical substitutions? I see.

What if you YC a prop . Same question to you.. at the next scrum the team will have to bring on a new STE prop. In your world who leaves the field? Must it be a forward (so we have seven in scrum) or must it be a back (eight in scrum) or can they choose?


To make it less cryptic for you.

IRB under 19 laws apply to Under 19 games here in Wales. We do not apply the optional Law 3.13 at Under 19 as a rule.
 
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talbazar


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STE Lock
To me it's pretty clear when you ref youth rugby that the non-trained locks can lead to (more) trouble for their front row.
What trains did you ask?
Body position, making their push flat and don't drive their props bum up, making sure they keep their props and hooker tight together, etc...

But all that discussion doesn't answer the OP :biggrin:
 

crossref


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To make it less cryptic for you.

IRB under 19 laws apply to Under 19 games here in Wales. We do not apply the optional Law 3.13 at Under 19 as a rule.

Yes, got it.
But back to the real topic of the thread,

What if you YC a prop?
At the next scrum the team will have to bring on a new STE prop. In your world who leaves the field? Must it be a forward (so we have seven in scrum)?
or must it be a back (eight in scrum)?
or can they choose?
 

Pegleg

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Does the law specify who may replace a FR forward in such a situation?

No. In fact, I've actually seen a winger taken off at pro level for a temp prop cover.

There's your answer.
 

crossref


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Pegleg:284903 said:
Does the law specify who may replace a FR forward in such a situation?

No. In fact, I've actually seen a winger taken off at pro level for a temp prop cover.

There's your answer.

I agree.
It means that the offending team (the team with the YC) , have the choice of whether the match proceeds with 7 or 8 in the scrum. Which is correct (in my view) but controversial
 

Pegleg

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Personally ( though I accept not necessarily in law) I feel that the pack should always be 8 unless ALL replacements have been used such that to do so a back would be required to play in the scrum. Our masters have decreed that the front row is "special" yet they are happy to have 8 pushing against 7, 6 or even 5 ( at senior level).
 

Phil E


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I am going to paste this for crossref, but he already knows about it because it has been gone through to death on here previously. :deadhorse:



[LAWS]Clarification 6 2009

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
Ruling6-2009
UnionARU
Law Reference20
Date10 August 2009
This Clarification was incorporated into Law in 2009

Request
1. The U19 Law Variation refers to a team having fewer than eight players in its scrum when “…the team cannot field a complete team, or a player sent off for Foul Play, or a player leaves the field because of injury.” Does this Law Variation also apply if a player is cautioned and temporarily suspended (yellow card)?

2. The U19 law Variation refers to both teams using reduced numbers of players in the scrum formation if “…a team is incomplete…” because it is without one, two or three players. No distinction is made between forward players and back players. If a No. 15 is sent off early in a match, must both teams play with seven players in the scrum, even though both teams still have eight players suitably trained and capable of playing in the scrum?

3. If a team cannot field a complete team because it is short one or more forward player, but that team is able to provide form the available players suitably trained players to contest scrums, may the game proceed/continue with eight player scrums per team?

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

The complete team is a reference to having eight players who can play in the scrum. If a forward leaves the field of play for any reason and cannot be replaced due to injury, sending off, temporary suspension or any other reason then both teams must reduce the number of players in the scrum so that there are equal numbers in both teams at the scrum.

If any player in the other than a forward has to leave the field for any reason and cannot be replaced there will be no reduction in the players playing in the scrum.
[/laws]
 
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crossref


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so there you see the different interpretations on display.

In the scenario here (YC to a prop), when an STE prop comes on for the next scrum Phil E will insist that it is a forward who leaves the pitch, so that there can be seven in the scrum.

I don't think the Law says that, the Law deals with situations where a forward CAN NOT be replaced, but the YC prop CAN be replaced - indeed he MUST be replaced to maintian a STE front row. it's a question of who has to come off.

I thnk they can take off a back.

pegleg thinks they ought to take off a back
 
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Phil E


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In the IRB clarification above, which part of

[LAWS]"Leaves the field of play for any reason"[/LAWS]

Are you having a problem understanding?

The intent of the clarification seems perfectly clear to me and most other people.
I understand you may not like it or agree with it, but that's a different thing.
 
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crossref


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I think the law covers the scenario of one team running out of forwards, which is not the case here, when the new STE prop comes on they have eight available forwards I just don't read that clarification as requiring one of those eight to leave the field (rather than a back)
 

Phil E


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Whatever.
You read it differently to me.....but that seems to apply to a lot of things.
 

Pegleg

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pegleg thinks they ought to take off a back


Pegleg said no such thing. I said the law does not prevent a back being replaced at senior level and I have seen it done at pro level.

Peglege said (THE LAWS NOT withstanding) that I would like to see it that you have to bring the scrum up to 8 at all times if possible. however that is not the law so Pegleg will work with the law as it is written.
 

Pegleg

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Clearly that ruling (I'd missed it) says that you have to go down to 7 in the scrum. So we have a clear answer for U19s.
 

talbazar


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In the IRB clarification above, which part of

[LAWS]"Leaves the field of play for any reason"[/LAWS]

Are you having a problem understanding?

The intent of the clarification seems perfectly clear to me and most other people.
I understand you may not like it or agree with it, but that's a different thing.

PhilE, it's not that part which is not clear to me, it's what comes after.
Does "due to injury, sending off, temporary suspension or any other reason" apply to
"Leaves the field of play"
or
"cannot be replaced"
?

If the the first one, then you go for 7 as long as a forward if out of the field of play.
If the second, a team would have to do their upmost to fill 8 players in the scrum at all time.

Furthermore, if you YC a FR. you need a replacement STE FR for the next scrum. Neither the U19 variation nor the clarification clearly prevent a team to replace a winger with a STE FR...
One can argue that the last sentence of the clarification could apply to that wing you get out temporarily to get an STE FR on the pitch...

Clearly that ruling (I'd missed it) says that you have to go down to 7 in the scrum. So we have a clear answer for U19s.
Maybe I'm over-thinking this, but unfortunately, I don't believe we have...
 

Dixie


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I am going to paste this for crossref, but he already knows about it because it has been gone through to death on here previously. :deadhorse:



[LAWS]Clarification 6 2009

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
Ruling6-2009
UnionARU
Law Reference20
Date10 August 2009
This Clarification was incorporated into Law in 2009

Request
1. The U19 Law Variation refers to a team having fewer than eight players in its scrum when “…the team cannot field a complete team, or a player sent off for Foul Play, or a player leaves the field because of injury.” Does this Law Variation also apply if a player is cautioned and temporarily suspended (yellow card)?

2. The U19 law Variation refers to both teams using reduced numbers of players in the scrum formation if “…a team is incomplete…” because it is without one, two or three players. No distinction is made between forward players and back players. If a No. 15 is sent off early in a match, must both teams play with seven players in the scrum, even though both teams still have eight players suitably trained and capable of playing in the scrum?

3. If a team cannot field a complete team because it is short one or more forward player, but that team is able to provide form the available players suitably trained players to contest scrums, may the game proceed/continue with eight player scrums per team?

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

The complete team is a reference to having eight players who can play in the scrum. If a forward leaves the field of play for any reason and cannot be replaced due to injury, sending off, temporary suspension or any other reason then both teams must reduce the number of players in the scrum so that there are equal numbers in both teams at the scrum.

If any player in the other than a forward has to leave the field for any reason and cannot be replaced there will be no reduction in the players playing in the scrum.
[/laws]

I am going to wade in here, rather against my better judgement.

The clarification can be slightly re-worded without doing violence to its intent as follows:

If a forward leaves the field of play for any reason and, for any reason, cannot be replaced ... then both teams must reduce the number of players in the scrum so that there are equal numbers in both teams at the scrum.


Crossref postulates a scenario in which a YC to a prop results in a replacement arriving (the forward has been replaced, so no need to invoke the clarification) but there is then a requirement for a player to leave the field to meet the terms of the YC. There is nothing in law, so far as I know, to insist that this must be either a forward or a back - the decision is entirely open and lies with the captain per Law 3.5(n). If he chooses a forward, then "for any reason" that forward leaves the field. At that point, the referee should ask whether there is another player on the field willing to play in the scrum. If the answer is no - even if the reason is that the backs don't want to mess up their hair - then the scrums must equalise at 7 apiece.
 

Browner

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I am going to wade in here, rather against my better judgement.

The clarification can be slightly re-worded without doing violence to its intent as follows:

If a forward leaves the field of play for any reason and, for any reason, cannot be replaced ... then both teams must reduce the number of players in the scrum so that there are equal numbers in both teams at the scrum.


Crossref postulates a scenario in which a YC to a prop results in a replacement arriving (the forward has been replaced, so no need to invoke the clarification) but there is then a requirement for a player to leave the field to meet the terms of the YC. There is nothing in law, so far as I know, to insist that this must be either a forward or a back - the decision is entirely open and lies with the captain per Law 3.5(n). If he chooses a forward, then "for any reason" that forward leaves the field. At that point, the referee should ask whether there is another player on the field willing to play in the scrum. If the answer is no - even if the reason is that the backs don't want to mess up their hair - then the scrums must equalise at 7 apiece.

Well reworded Dixie.

Although instead of willing , I'd say ABLE.

I believe the thrust of this clarification is to keep the scrum at 8v8 if at all possible.
 

ChrisR

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Thanx all for the clarifications.

If you card a FR when do you call for the replacement? Immediately or at the next scrum?

If a FR has to leave for a 'blood' injury can he be replaced with a non-STE player until a scrum is required?
 

crossref


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Thanx all for the clarifications.

If you card a FR when do you call for the replacement? Immediately or at the next scrum?

In an age group game in RFU there would be unlimited interchanges it's up to the coach - they can make the substitution then and there (with the ref's permission as with any interchange) or they can wait for the next scrum when they would be required to make it.

As a referee I would only intervene at the next scrum, when I make sure I had an STE front row, requiring an interchange if necessary.
 

crossref


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If a FR has to leave for a 'blood' injury can he be replaced with a non-STE player until a scrum is required?

This worth a thread of its own, and I asked the same question on another thread, in the context of the recent man-off mistake in the LV cup.

The wider question is whether it is legal for a team - for any reason, blood, injury, just an interchange - to take off an STE player, and bring on a non-STE one, with the intention of sorting it out (another interchange, or going man-off) at the next scrum.

It seems to be legal, but not in the spirit of the game.
 

crossref


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Yesterday a scenario we have discussed actually happened :
- reffing an U18 game, I gave a YC to a flanker.
- At the next scrum, eight players presented themselves - the team had re-organised themselves and one of the players playing in the back line went to flanker for the set piece.

[LAWS]If a forward leaves the field of play for any reason and cannot be replaced due to injury, sending off, temporary suspension or any other reason then both teams must reduce the number of players in the scrum so that there are equal numbers in both teams at the scrum.[/LAWS]

It seems to me
- a forward had left the field
- but it wasn't the case that he could not be replaced - indeed he had been replaced.

so I allowed it, and we continued with eight man scrums.

but this thread (and others before) certainly passed through my mind, and I acknowledge that other refs - reading the exact same law - would have insisted on seven man scrums.
 
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