U19 Scrum formation - Questions

[talbazar]

Guys and Gals,

I've highlighted in the U19 Law variation below the points which make me wonder how to manage the situation when one team is down to 14.
Example: Blue vs. Red. Red forward yellow carded. Next scrum


[LAWS]20.1 Forming a scrum

(e) In an 8 person scrum the formation must be 3-4-1, with the single player (normally the Number 8) shoving on the 2 locks. The locks must pack with their heads on either side of the hooker.

Exception: A team must have fewer than eight players in its scrum when the team cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum due to either the team not fielding a complete team, or a forward player being sent off or temporarily suspended for foul play, or a forward player leaving the field because of injury.

Even allowing for this exception, each team must always have at least five players in a scrum.

If a team is incomplete and it cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum, the scrum formation must be as follows:

If a team is without one forward player, then both teams must use a 3-4 formation (i.e. no No.8).

If a team is without two forward players, then both teams must use a 3-2-1 formation (i.e. no flankers).

If a team is without three forward players, then both teams must use a 3-2 formation (i.e. only front rows and locks).

When a normal scrum takes place, the players in the three front row positions and the two lock positions must have been suitably trained for these positions.

If a team cannot field such suitably trained players because:

either they are not available, or

a player in one of those five positions is injured or

has been sent off for Foul Play and no suitably trained replacement is available, then the referee must order uncontested scrums.

In an uncontested scrum, the teams do not compete for the ball. The team putting in the ball must win it. Neither team is allowed to push the other team away from the mark.[/LAWS]

Question 1: Yellow carded Red is a suitably trained Lock.
Must the referee ask Red to fill up the scrum with 8 people by either:
- Bringing a back into back-row and a back-row into lock (if suitably trained)
or
- Bringing a temporary replacement for a lock position (if possible)

Question 2: Yellow Carded Red is a back-row
- Must the referee ask Red to fill up the scrum with 8 players (bringing a back in)
or
- Shall he go ahead with a 7 men-scrum?

Question 3: In the scenario above, if we go ahead with 7 men-scrum:
- Red scrum: They put 7 --> Blue must put 7 (and have a back-row going in the line) --> I believe I'm correct here
- Blue Scrum: Can blue put 8 and ask Red to match their number?

Cheers,
Pierre.

 

[crossref]

We have discussed this many times before!
The answer that is generally accepted, by coaches and referees alike, is that if you YC a lock, then the game proceed with 7v7 in the scrum.

However if you YC a red lock and red then make a substitution and bring on a new lock , then opinions differ: some referees would now play 8v8 in the scrums, others would enforce 7v7. Take your choice..

 

[Pegleg]

Interesting one. I'd go for allowing 8v8 if a back is taken off for a STE forward replacement.

That in itself raises a question does that count as a temporary sub (as per FR in full laws after a YC) or permanent replacement?

 

[crossref]

In england youth games are generally played with unlimited interchanges.

 

[Pegleg]

That solve that one fro you nicely. Sadly not for us. Will ask at the next meeting.

 

[Phil E]

The answer that is generally accepted, by coaches and referees alike, is that if you YC a lock, then the game proceed with 7v7 in the scrum.

......with both teams dropping their #8, so as to maintain equal balance in the scrum (i.e. they can't drop a flanker and keep the #8).

 

[ChrisR]

If the scrum is reduced to 7v7 then the formation is 3-4 but it is up to the teams to determine who plays. Is that what you meant?

 

[crossref]

It's complicated as the u19 variations specify that players playing as locks should be STE for that position.

Basically if you YC an STE player, and the team subsequently do a substitution to bring on a fresh STE player, the question is who are they allowed to take off? Must they take off a forward and play 7 in scrum? Or must they take off a back and play 8 in scrum.. Or can they choose...

 

[Dixie]

It's complicated as the u19 variations specify that players playing as locks should be STE for that position.

Indeed. And that raises the interesting (and wholly unaddressed!) question of what training and experience is considered suitable for a lock forward? I find it hard to imagine - perhaps Phil E can give us a clue. I thought the main risk for a lock was oxygen depletion at rarefied atmospheres.

 

[Phil E]

Bend over and push!!

 

[didds]

*shudders*


;-) <----

didds

 

[Browner]

Bend over and push!!

Backwards is OK darling

 

[Browner]

It's complicated as the u19 variations specify that players playing as locks should be STE for that position.

Basically if you YC an STE player, and the team subsequently do a substitution to bring on a fresh STE player, the question is who are they allowed to take off? Must they take off a forward and play 7 in scrum? Or must they take off a back and play 8 in scrum.. Or can they choose...

For me, for two reasons , scrums largely meaningless at u19, & less players in backs = bigger advantage to non offending side ( generally)

 

[Pegleg]

Indeed. And that raises the interesting (and wholly unaddressed!) question of what training and experience is considered suitable for a lock forward?

That's the reply I got at a meeting tonight. Worry about the FR was basically the advice. So no YC substitution for a 2nd row being binned.

 

[crossref]

Indeed. And that raises the interesting (and wholly unaddressed!) question of what training and experience is considered suitable for a lock forward?

That's the reply I got at a meeting tonight. Worry about the FR was basically the advice. So no YC substitution for a 2nd row being binned.

Not clear what you mean by this, really

 

[Pegleg]

I agree with Dixie. I do not understand what specific training you need to be STE for second row duties. Although Phil sees to sum it up nicely.

Secondly whereas the law requires that a FR forward is replace with a STE FR player in the event of a sin bin with another player being subjected to a temp substitution. We will not do that for a second row. The is taking into account we do not apply interchanges at youth level here.

 

[crossref]

I agree with Dixie. I do not understand what specific training you need to be STE for second row duties. Although Phil sees to sum it up nicely.

Secondly whereas the law requires that a FR forward is replace with a STE FR player in the event of a sin bin with another player being subjected to a temp substitution. We will not do that for a second row. The is taking into account we do not apply interchanges at youth level here.

Pegleg, the real issue is ~ if they use an interchange and bring on a new forward, must they take off a forward, or must they take off a back? Or can they choose?

 

[Pegleg]

Pegleg, the real issue is ~ if they use an interchange and bring on a new forward, must they take off a forward, or must they take off a back? Or can they choose?

As stated:
We do not apply interchanges at youth level here. so it is not something to be considered. We would not however allow any player to come off so that a STE SR could cover the sin bin period.

To answer your RFU centric question you'll need to get an answer from RFU land sorry.

 

[crossref]

Pegleg, the real issue is ~ if they use an interchange and bring on a new forward, must they take off a forward, or must they take off a back? Or can they choose?

As stated:
We do not apply interchanges at youth level here. so it is not something to be considered. We would not however allow any player to come off so that a STE SR could cover the sin bin period.

To answer your RFU centric question you'll need to get an answer from RFU land sorry.

I didn't understand your previous reply. Too cryptic for me. Are you saying g that in your world youth teams are not allowed to make tactical substitutions? I see.

What if you YC a prop . Same question to you.. at the next scrum the team will have to bring on a new STE prop. In your world who leaves the field? Must it be a forward (so we have seven in scrum) or must it be a back (eight in scrum) or can they choose?

 

[Dixie]

Bend over and push!!

Ah! Same as fagging at a public school. Can easily be managed by 13 year-olds without training.